One day, I decided I wanted to run a few raids for grimoire progress. My group and I can get hard VOG done in a little under an hour with maybe a handful of wipes. I figured for the sake of grimoire it would be safe to run it on normal with randoms on my 32 Hunter. First group I joined at Atheon had no idea what they were doing and when I asked 'Has anyone here done this before?' Their response was '-blam!- yeah f*g, look at my flawless raider trophy!' And then they proceeded to laugh like idiots. Needless to say, I left. Dicks. Second group were a group of really nice British guys who wanted to do the whole thing. I was informed that one of them had never run before - I was alright with this, and told him we could work with it no problem. It took us an hour and a half to get to Atheon with a handful of wipes. Atheon hit and... Holy crap, these dudes could not figure out how to use the relic, even when I slowed down and explained everything to them. They told me they understood and proceeded to talk over me when I tried to give them pointers veery politely. I got teleported 3 times out of MANY attempts. I figured maybe they just needed to play a few rounds to get in the hang of the rotations, etc. NOPE. 2 hours later and we couldn't get past a single rotation. The dudes were level 30 and 31... And this was on NORMAL. There is no excuse. Please educate yourself on what is going to happen by watching YouTube tutorials or reading some of the great tutorials here on b.net. Or at least, at the very least, be willing to listen to people who have run it before and can help you. It still boggles my mind that we couldn't beat it with 3 31's, 2 30's, and a 32, especially considering myself and 3 of my friends 4 man normal VOG on occasion.