What if Magistrate Loken became Yor? Ghost Fragment: The Last Word talks about him already being a "man who just became broken. Mostly I think he was sad. Sad and frightened", it also states "Looking back, I think maybe Loken had just lost too much - of himself, his family". and talks about how he tightened his grip on Palamon, making the days grey.

I'm still convinced Eris is not in fact a hunter. Simply because Toland refers to Eris and the other Hunter she was with as "hunters" not "Hunters". And the fact that her and Cayde fight like warlocks and hunters. help me out on this one anon.

I always enjoy reading your posts, but you confuse your theories as being Total Confirmation Once and For All, and that's not true. There is no confirmation once and for all that Jaren and Dredgen are two different people. I've read your posts, and you contradict things a lot and interpret things to your own slant. Which is fine, but it's not Confirmation. When Shin says "two men entered my world" he could very easily be speaking metaphorically. Why would he refer to Dredgen as Dark if Dredgen was originally noble, when Shin met him? "Same meat. Same bone. But so very different." You pointed out that Dredgen killed 3 people, then reference them as being part of their party later on. Dredgen himself said he didn't know those 3. Just met em. They even called themselves strangers to him, not people he would have been traveling with. This is also after he went Dark. But the fireteam you mentioned, where Jaren's last stand took place, would have been before that. Perhaps the most damning is simply, why did Jaren die? His Ghost was alive. Ghosts rez. That's canon. Jaren's Ghost wasn't destroyed. It found Shin when he was searching for Jaren's body, but there's no mention of a burial. Rather the Ghost spoke to him instead, which it had never done before. But why didn't it simply rez Jaren? Thorn 3 would suggest quite the contradiction to your Confirmation Once and For All. Why the Ghost left. Why it couldn't rez Jaren. Why it had been looking at Shin for days before hand, knowing what was coming ,what was going to occur. If Dredgen was truly a hero, as several cards point out, why don't we know his name? Why doesn't Shin ever mention it? Or Jaren? Why isn't there a single association with him in all these documented historical files? He was a hero that no one knew. A hero that no one remembered. A hero that has no deeds, no accomplishments. A hero without a name? Not much of a hero. Not much of a noble man. Or maybe we already know his name. After all, Dredgen Yor is not a true name. It's a made up name, as the card mentions. We don't know if Jaren and Dredgen are the same. We can theorize. We can discuss. But when you say "CONFIRMED ONCE AND FOR ALL" you're asking us to stop. We shouldn't stop. Because it's NOT confirmed. Because we DON'T know for sure. You can believe they were two different people, but your posts don't prove it. And you shouldn't tell people to stop the discussion, because it's far too interesting, on both sides, to simply say "It's done and over." Because until Bungie says otherwise, it's not over. Not yet.

If Dredgen isn't Jaren, please explain "The gunslinger's sword...his cannon. that was a gift." "An offering from me to you." -from the last word 4 If the stranger is Dredgen and Dredgen isn't Jaren why would he be alluding to when Jaren bestowed the last word upon Shin?

Who was Dredgen Yor before he became Dredgen?

Do we know what race Ward and Yor were?

I contend they are 2 separate individuals. Jaren died in the woods and his ghost escaped, taking TLW in transmat form to Shin, Jaren's student. This battle is the last time we see Jaren and is presumably when he dies/disappears. So why is it that we hear 2 separate guns, 1 definitely TLW, the other, being a wicked sounding weapon, presumably being Thorn. Thus, considering the timing, it would be impossible for TLW to be "the rose" that preceeded Thorn. The fact that Shin supposedly confronts and kills Yor with Jaren's last words phrase confirms that these are 2 distinct weapond. Additionally, if the two guns are 2 separate weapons, why would Jaren be using both weapons? And one final point, if this was when Jaren converted to the darkness, why would he let his ghost go free with TLW? A ghost that knows all about him and a weapon that is clearly powerful. Just letting these go would be a tremendous risk for him. The more likely scenario would be Yor either corrupts or destroys his own ghost. So, I say again, Yor killed Ward in the forest. Wards ghost, likely unable to revive Ward due to Thorn or simply because Yor would destroy it when it tried, transmatted TLW and fled to Shin so that Shin, Wards student, could take up his mantle. Wards body was never recovered due to the risk of recovering it and the apparent lack of value of recovering bodies in this day and age (think the titan over by the temple of crota). Edit. Also, Yor indicates that he called his weapon the rose because of the bloom when he fired it, but when it was not being shot, it was only jagged thorns. This also indicates thorn and TLW were different weapons, as TLW doesn't have any jagged edges.

Ok Anon I just read TLW 4 I won't compose a thesis as to why that just makes me even more sure that the Hero Jaren Ward fell to the Villian Dredgen Yor and that The Last Word became Thorn so agree to disagree?

Dredgen yor is a rogue warlock.

Hey Anon-- After reading thorn and last word 4 I am more convinced than ever that Jaren became Dredgen....

Bump. Spoilers below. Ghost Fragment: The Last Word 4 [spoiler]Then. Palamon was ash. I was only a boy – my face caked in soot, snot and sorrow. I’d assumed Jaren, my friend, our Guardian, the savior of Palamon, would always protect us – could always save us… But I was a fool. Jaren, and the others, only a handful, but still our best hunters, our hardest hearts, had left three suns prior. Tracking Fallen, after the bandits had caused a stir. The stranger – the other – arrived the following day. He rarely spoke. Took a room. Took our hospitality. I was intrigued by him, as I was Jaren when he’d first arrived. But the stranger was cold. Distant. Damaged, I thought. But I wasn’t afraid. Not yet. Only a child, I knew the monsters of our world to walk like men, but they were not. They were something alien. Four-armed and savage. The stranger was polite, but solemn. I took him for a sad, broken man, and he was. Though, at the time, I didn’t understand how that could make one dangerous. As with Jaren, father made an effort to keep me away from the stranger. It wouldn’t matter. As the silhouette approached, fear held tight. The dark figure towered over me. Looking into me – through me. He smiled. My knees weak. All lost. Then, he turned and walked away. Leaving ruin and a heartbroken, terrified boy in his wake without a second glance. I’ve been chasing that stranger’s shadow ever since. Now. We stood silent, the sun high. Seconds passed, feeling more like hours. He looked different. He seemed, now, to be weightless – effortless in an existence that would crush a man burdened by conscience. My gaze remained locked as I felt a heat rising inside of me. The other spoke… “Been awhile.” I gave no reply. “The gunslinger’s sword… his cannon. That was a gift.” My silence held as my thumb caressed the perfectly worn hammer at my hip. “An offering from me… to you.” The heat grew. Centered in my chest. I felt like a coward the day Jaren Ward died and for many cycles after. But here, I felt only the fire of my Light. The other probed… “Nothing to say?” He let the words hang. “I’ve been waiting for you. For this day.” His attempt at conversation felt mundane when judged against all that had come before. “Many times I thought you’d faltered. Given up…” All I’d lost, all who’d suffered, flashed rapid through my mind, intercut with a dark silhouette walking toward a frightened, weak, coward of a boy. The fire burned in me. The other continued… “But here you are. This is truly an end…” As his tongue slipped between syllables my gun hand moved as if of its own will. Reflex and purpose merged with anger, clarity and an overwhelming need for just that… an end. In step with my motion, the fire within burst into focus – through my shoulder, down my arm – as my finger closed on the trigger of my third father’s cannon. Two shots. Two bullets engulfed in an angry glow. The other fell. I walked to his corpse. He never raised his cursed Thorn – the jagged gun with the festering sickness. I looked down at the dead man who had caused so much death. My shooter still embraced by the dancing flames of my Light. A sadness came over me. I thought back to my earliest days. Of Palamon. Of Jaren. Leveling my cannon at the dead man’s helm, I paid one final tribute to my mentor, my savior, my father and my friend… “Yours… Not mine.” …as I closed my grip, allowing Jaren’s cannon, now my own, to have the last, loud word.[/spoiler] Ghost Fragment: Thorn 4 [spoiler]The Shadow and the Light TYPE: Transcript. DESCRIPTION: Conversation. PARTIES: Two [2]. One [1] Ghost-type, designate [REDACTED] [u.1], One [1] Guardian-type, Class [REDACTED] [u.2] ASSOCIATIONS: Breaklands; Durga; Dwindler’s Ridge; Last Word; Malphur, Shin; North Channel; Palamon; Thorn; Velor; Ward, Jaren; WoS; Yor, Dredgen; //AUDIO UNAVAILABLE// //TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS…/ [u.1:0.1] Such Darkness. [u.2:0.1] Impressed? [u.1:0.2] Far from it. [u.2:0.2] To each their own. [u.1:0.3] His Light is faded. [u.2:0.3] His Light is gone. [u.1:0.4] You are an infection. [u.2:0.4] I am that which will cleanse. [u.1:0.5] You are a monster. [u.2:0.5] Heh. An old friend once saw me as the same. He was right, and, had we met earlier, so too would you be. [u.1:0.6] You’d dare defend yourself – all you’ve done – as anything but monstrous? [u.2:0.6] No more than a hurricane. [u.1:0.7] Then you’re a force of nature? [u.2:0.7] I am all that is right. You may not see it – for lack of looking, or blind ignorance – but I am all that is good. [u.1:0.8] You’ve just murdered a good man. [u.2:0.8] He shot first. [u.1:0.9] Yet you stand. [u.2:0.9] Guess he missed. [u.1:1.0] He never misses. [u.2:1.0] First time for everything. [silence] [u.2:1.1] His cannon? Nice piece of hardware. [u.2:1.2] Well-worn, but clean. Smooth hammer. [u.1:1.1] It was his prize. [u.2:1.3] Guess he put too much faith in the wrong steel. [u.1:1.2] Is that where you’re faith lies, in steel? [u.2:1.4] Not for some time. My steel is only an extension. My faith is in the shadow. [u.1:1.3] Then my Light is an affront to all you are. I am your truest enemy. [u.2:1.5] One of many. [u.1:1.4] Would you end me? [u.2:1.6] Not you. Not now. [u.1:1.5] The shadow knows mercy. [u.2:1.7] The shadow knows no such thing. [u.1:1.6] Then what? [u.2:1.8] The other. [u.1:1.7] What other? [u.2:1.9] The dead man’s charge. [u.1:1.8] The boy? [u.1:1.9] You’d end him as well? [u.2:2.0] If it comes to that… We’ll see. [u.1:2.0] I won’t let you have the child. [u.2:2.1] Been long enough now, think maybe he’s a man. [u.1:2.1] You cannot have him. [u.2:2.2] Not yet. [u.1:2.2] I won’t let you. [u.2:2.3] That you could stop me is an amusing thought. [silence] [u.2:2.4] Here. [silence] [u.2:2.5] Take it. [u.1:2.3] Why? [u.2:2.6] Give the apprentice his master’s “sword.” It is a gift. [u.1:2.4] You cannot have him. [u.2:2.7] You fear for his Light? [u.1:2.5] He… [u.2:2.8] …is special. [u.1:2.6] Yes. [u.2:2.9] I am aware. [u.1:2.7] You’re trying to tempt him. You’re feeding his anger. [u.2:3.0] The gun is a memento, nothing more. [u.1:2.8] You claim to be a vessel, a hollow shell where once a man stood, but that is just a lie. The man is still in you. [u.2:3.1] There is no man here, I am now, and for the rest of time, only Dredgen Yor. [u.1:2.9] “The Eternal Abyss?” [u.2:3.2] So, not all the forgotten languages are dead. [u.1:3.0] Hide behind whatever titles you wish, it is all still a façade. No force of nature would play such games. [u.2:3.3] Games? [u.1:3.1] The cannon. You wish to tempt the boy. Too spur him on and fuel his rage. There is intent there. The actions of a man, monstrous, mad or otherwise… you are nothing more. [u.2:3.4] And what value does your conclusion bring, flawed as it may be? [u.1:3.2] That a hurricane can only be weathered, not stopped. Not redirected. A force of nature is uncaring and without intent, but a man… [u.2:3.5] Yes? [u.1:3.3] A man is none of those things. [silence] [u.1:3.4] A man can be killed. [silence] [u.2:3.6] And there it is… [u.1:3.5] There what is…? [u.2:3.7] A sliver of hope.[/spoiler]

Same as darkness came from traveller, dredgen yore is what is left when the darkness took Jaren Ward