Against my own better judgement, I watched all of this. If I should have learned anything, by now, it is that someone can put up a PvP montage, talk in a forcibly faked deeper voice (because it makes them super cereal, you know), and that becomes the definitive benchmark of proof. Why bother setting the bar for burden of proof any higher, when it is proven, time and time again, that this is what constitutes validity amongst this community?
These are the same arguments that have been repeated before, and just because they are repeated again, they are still nothing more than an opinion based on a complete lack of understanding of how a development shop will run multiple parallel streams of development to meet aggressive timelines, and follow a "ship as ready" deployment schedule. This is not a "Bungie practice", this is not an "Activision practice", this is not a "gaming company practice", it is an established software development practice that has been around longer than a fairly large percentage of this community has been alive.
The general argument is that Activision made Bungie cut content so that they could turn around and sell it back to you all. It has all that is needed to get the conspiracy theory running, because it creates an oversimplified scenario where a major corporation is out to bleed you dry. If that we their goal, however, they would be doing a piss-poor job at it. I feel like a broken record saying this, but a map is the lowest level of approachable content. It is simple geometry, that uses commodity assets, that they can (very) rapidly create using their in house tooling - which was part of the initial development phases of this game. Bungie has talked about this, in-depth, complete with videos showing how easily they could make a map. Their existence proves nothing, other than content designers created maps. That is a fraction of what goes into the completed product.
But assume for a second, that a map was a "majority" of the work - which it is not. There is an abundance of "content" just laying around, waiting to be sold back to you. The implication is that form of "content" is a majority of the effort to give you something that can be packaged for sale. However, the problem with that is - if it were true - you would be getting it sold back to you on a much more frequent schedule. There is blatant stupidity in the assumption that Activision does not care, as you already bought the base game (and possibly a season pass). That is simply not how a business operates. They are more interested in selling you the franchise, which is considerably more lucrative than the fractional amount that they would get up through now.
That is pretty much what the contract shows, too. Destiny will be following a set pattern of primary and secondary releases. Yes, they were able to name and plan the DLC releases. That is not some nefarious plot that proves they cut content, either. It is an artifact of project management. You simply do not plan, oblivious to a larger roadmap. Each major release, and subsequent release, are milestones, penciled in well before the work begins. Regardless of public opinion, you do not undertake a project this large without knowing where you are going years in advance, and you do not put all of your resources on the same development path - especially with a team the size of the one involved in this project.
If shops were run by virtue of the popular opinion of this community, nothing would ever get released.
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Thank you for the kind words. Honestly, I do not expect to change anyone's mind on anything. There is just rampant and unchecked speculation that is just accepted as fact, and it does nothing to address the issue at hand which, in my opinion, is coming together as a community to help improve the aspects of the game that need to be improved. Infighting amongst users causes more problems than it solves, as it becomes next to impossible to figure out which side of the argument to address. If this forum put as much effort into civilly discussing and trying to understand all sides of the issue, we would actually make it easier to send a message to Bungie and Activision as to what we would like to see going forward. It is just a sad state of affairs when an opinion or accusation is levied on YouTube, that it instantly carries swagger in the community. It is no different than an opinion or accusation made on this forum, apart from the fact that it is using a different medium. Citing an arbitrary YouTube video as empirical evidence is like citing Wikipedia in a thesis. :-)
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I smiled as I read your post - just the right sprinkling of snark.
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Did I get that today? Good. Normally my snark recipes [i]suck[/i]. My wife is the Snarkmaster, I'm her humble padawan. ;-D
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"The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master." ;-) I seriously need to get some actual work done.
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Well put sir. I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Preach.
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Yeah it's called Agile Development. Rally away boys.
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It sure is, and with this type of project, any other methodology would likely lead to even more missed deadlines and a completely different set of problems. Even considering the game's issues, it is always impressive to visualize a shop this large in operation. Had done a couple of government contracts in the past - and despite the inefficiencies in most aspects of government - it still is mind-boggling how large projects can be run efficiently, while small projects can die on the vine. :-)
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You just pulled an 8 mile for Bungie/Activision.
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Bump. This person gets it.
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+1 Sir, I'm glad I'm not alone in this community. I too find it humorous when all someone needs it's a little meaningless video on youtube and apparently they are all of a sudden the expert on the matter and have more knowledge in their mind than all of the minds in a major corporation. The people who think they know more than a corporation without any experience of working for that company or in that environment have got to be the most naive people in the world. It would be like someone coming to me (I work in healthcare) and telling me that hospitals want to bleed their patients dry and take all their money. I think if someone did that I'd have to go down to our ER because I might die of laughter.
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Thank you for being a voice of reason in an otherwise shitstorm of stupidity. Most people who complain about topics such as this truly have no comprehension of how project management works, and their arguments prove that when read carefully and a rebuttal is provided. Typically they just repeat the same small handful of "talking points" that they feel proves their point but which really only amount to opinion and speculation.
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Edited by XxMrHollywood: 1/14/2015 1:45:57 PMInteresting ideas. What about enemies running around, a boss, and dead ghosts? Kings watch has had it all since alpha, can you play it without glitching? no, that is called "Cut Content" If your ok with that then thats on you.
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Here is a thought: Bungie, in their vast experience, knows just how resourceful the community can be. I mean, they've seen players that make it their sole purpose to superbounce, glitch outside the map and abuse animation cancels to dominate in PVP in all of their past games. Who can say that, knowing this community, they purposefully left a few things in the game here and there as breadcrumbs to see if it would spark the creative juices to try and break their game. It just so happens that these areas are part of the DLC which hasn't been released yet, to prevent any advantages it would give. Much like the good puppet the community is, we took the bait. whats more, if Crota's End Hard mode wasn't big enough proof that we are so gullible, then we are just in denial. They purposefully delayed it to see how we would break it.
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You are more than entitled to your opinion, but I simply will not fall victim to the repeating pattern of brainwashing that runs rampant around here. This community generated excess hype, and then when their own extrapolations of what that really meant were not met, they lay blame at everyone's feet but their own - and the same thing happens every time there is an impending release, and it will continue to happen because this community will not accept the fact that they have a responsibility to be an informed consumer. That is no one's fault but your own. Citing works in progress as completed content does not become factual because it is repeated, over and over. In the software development industry, we regularly include artifacts that are not complete. Code paths mature at different frequencies, and there is value in pushing things as they sit. The "Ultra Captain" argument... It is old and tired. They go to the effort of naming minor bosses all throughout the game. If they learned a lesson from that one, it is that they should have called him "Placeholder Pete" - but I don't even think that could drive the point home. I am more than okay with their development approach, because it is much more common than you will ever realize. It is not proof of the Illuminati, but a mature industry standard that is not going to change because the consumers do not understand it.
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So a name on a single npc in an otherwise 100% complete area several months before the game launches means its still "in development" I can just give you facts, if you believe in your response above then theres nothing more I can do.
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The only reason there's nothing more that you can do is because you're being Titan punched with logic and realistic explanations, yet trying to deny and respond to it by your piggybacked "opinion". Give it up. Your case is weak. As Lord Shaxx would say, "this isn't a fight, it's a massacre.'
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I believe my response based on the fact that I have spent my entire career developing software in shops ranging from just a few people to ones even larger than Bungie. You do not have to believe what I have experienced, in terms of software development practices, but you sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "Neener! Neener! Neener!" has no impact on what I have been exposed to that consumers are generally not aware of. Other developers who play this game have stated the same thing on other countless threads, just like this one. Honestly, I have no idea what point you are trying to make in your statement. The Ultra Captain is a placeholder, likely from play testing a spawn point. That is not what an NPC is. An NPC is Eris, a mechanic that Bungie specifically said was added as a content delivery mechanism based on user feedback. Completeness is not, and never will be, an indication of something being cut. The only thing that it proves is that they are ahead of a deadline - for however "complete" something is. If it was done and ready for everyone to access, it would have been either included or sold to you already. They have absolutely nothing to gain by holding back content for quarterly releases when they could have sold it to you thrice already.
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They actually have a lot to gain by holding back content and reselling it. Not saying that's what they are doing but what I will say is the game is lacking more than it should.
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Agree that the game is lacking in the content department - have never personally disputed that. But, I really do think that it wll have to be addressed if there is any chance of viability of the franchise running its full course. There would be even more to gain, though, if the end-products were as easy to produce as it was claimed. And that is my point, ultimately. If they could efficiently increase the pipeline to deliver more content, you would definitely see it. If they turned around what we have gotten in terms of scope, DLC-wise, on a monthly basis - even at $10USD per month - they would likely do it, as they would be generating more income.
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Someone actually understands!!
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Edited by DollyPrtn666: 1/14/2015 1:34:04 PMBOOM *drops mic*
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[b]U should make a topic off this... [/b]
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To be completely honest, I had considered making a related topic, but I felt that there would be more relevance in keeping the response inline to this thread, because there are going to be people that just come in, upvote the OP, and move on. One of two things would happen, being that the related thread would simply drop off the forums like a rock, or it would just become a thread full of hate and accusations of white knighting. I've been a bit hypercritical of people showboating opinions as repetitive threads, and I would just be more than a wee bit of a hypocrite, if I were to do the same. The fact that I am seeing that there are like-minded people, in terms of my response, helps to restore a bit of faith in the community. :-)
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[b]Well Said [/b]