{{
`${userDetail.user.displayName}${userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode ? `#${standardizeBungieGlobalCode(userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode)}` : ""}`}}
{{getUserClans()}}
1/14/2015 11:48:55 AM
99
Against my own better judgement, I watched all of this. If I should have learned anything, by now, it is that someone can put up a PvP montage, talk in a forcibly faked deeper voice (because it makes them super cereal, you know), and that becomes the definitive benchmark of proof. Why bother setting the bar for burden of proof any higher, when it is proven, time and time again, that this is what constitutes validity amongst this community?
These are the same arguments that have been repeated before, and just because they are repeated again, they are still nothing more than an opinion based on a complete lack of understanding of how a development shop will run multiple parallel streams of development to meet aggressive timelines, and follow a "ship as ready" deployment schedule. This is not a "Bungie practice", this is not an "Activision practice", this is not a "gaming company practice", it is an established software development practice that has been around longer than a fairly large percentage of this community has been alive.
The general argument is that Activision made Bungie cut content so that they could turn around and sell it back to you all. It has all that is needed to get the conspiracy theory running, because it creates an oversimplified scenario where a major corporation is out to bleed you dry. If that we their goal, however, they would be doing a piss-poor job at it. I feel like a broken record saying this, but a map is the lowest level of approachable content. It is simple geometry, that uses commodity assets, that they can (very) rapidly create using their in house tooling - which was part of the initial development phases of this game. Bungie has talked about this, in-depth, complete with videos showing how easily they could make a map. Their existence proves nothing, other than content designers created maps. That is a fraction of what goes into the completed product.
But assume for a second, that a map was a "majority" of the work - which it is not. There is an abundance of "content" just laying around, waiting to be sold back to you. The implication is that form of "content" is a majority of the effort to give you something that can be packaged for sale. However, the problem with that is - if it were true - you would be getting it sold back to you on a much more frequent schedule. There is blatant stupidity in the assumption that Activision does not care, as you already bought the base game (and possibly a season pass). That is simply not how a business operates. They are more interested in selling you the franchise, which is considerably more lucrative than the fractional amount that they would get up through now.
That is pretty much what the contract shows, too. Destiny will be following a set pattern of primary and secondary releases. Yes, they were able to name and plan the DLC releases. That is not some nefarious plot that proves they cut content, either. It is an artifact of project management. You simply do not plan, oblivious to a larger roadmap. Each major release, and subsequent release, are milestones, penciled in well before the work begins. Regardless of public opinion, you do not undertake a project this large without knowing where you are going years in advance, and you do not put all of your resources on the same development path - especially with a team the size of the one involved in this project.
If shops were run by virtue of the popular opinion of this community, nothing would ever get released.
English
-
I'm really digging your point of view right now. I read through all you've said so far and I'm very impressed with your knowledge on something that I personally don't know much about. Great job man!
-
Thanks. It is all my opinion and what I've picked up along the way, just tempered by what I've observed in other shops. Obviously have no inside views into the workings of Bungie, but there is more in common between most shops than is different, at the end of the day. Personally, I subscribe to the adage that the truth, more often than not, follows the path of least resistance. :-)
-
An interesting and well thought response. I must also conmemorate you for your knowledge and your extensive vocabulary. People´s opinion on the game they recieved and the future of Destiny as a whole depends on how you see it. As a customer and after having read the official contract between Activision and Bungie, I can only say that is all just business. Among the things that I concur with BDobbins is that Destiny reached out to possibly everyone of its potential customers, including me (pre-ordered it, as I was aboard the massive hype train of this game). It was the comercial success of the decade and of this new generation of consoles. But then again, the dissapointment of the public comes from them as gamers. Imagine if Destiny was released as the "master-piece" that everyone hoped that it would be. Mixing the great gunplay that is has with more gameplay modes for the Crucible (sparrow racing included) and on the single player campaign, a trading system, a way to socially interact with other people other than dancing, a deeper story and more interactable universe and overall less grinding to it. Something of this nature is what gamers wanted from a game that was developed by no other than Bungie, the same studio that brought us the Halo franchise. Alas, it was not meant to be. As a customer, I can see that this is how these companies are making business. As a gamer, I am cynical about whether or not I will pick up my copy of Destiny 2 (depending on the improvements that they make) but I am also curious as if this plan was made or shifted around the time the lead writer was fired. There is no way of knowing, but I am certain that had this game been what we all who pre-ordered expected it to be, then the Destiny franchise would have earned something very few companies and franchies have: The trust of its GAMERS. And with trust, comes a safe time where you can release all kinds of DLC that will only add to what is already a more than satisfying experience. Though this is all just my opinion. If I may ask you then: As of right now and knowing what Activision and Bungie have in store for us, if Destiny 2 came out right now, would you buy it?
-
What a loaded question. :-) In all honesty, if Destiny 2 came out today, I would not buy it. However, it is not for the reasons you may think. I like to believe that every purchase that I make comes from making an informed decision, and there simply is nothing for me to make that determination on, at this moment. But, I can assure you that I will be paying attention, and as that information becomes available, I will use that to make a decision. Just because my subjective opinion is that I do enjoy the game, complete with its faults, does not mean that I have "bought the franchise", so to speak. I did pre-order Destiny, not because of the hype or the perks (directly), but because it would allow me to access the game early enough to determine whether or not I would actually want to cancel my purchase or not. Going in to the game, I had absolutely no expectations. Generally speaking, this is not a genre that I would normally consider to be one in my wheelhouse. However, the social aspects of the game were intriguing, and while still lacking, are one of the continued draws for the game. It was the gameplay that hooked me, and still impresses me today. I have complaints, and a wish list, but I also understand that prioritization is not solely about what I want, or even what we want. There are larger circumstances at play, and not every change is going to be visible to us, or just an atomic change that exists on its own. Take the Vault issue. Seemingly easy to address on the surface, at least. We can agree on that, correct? Bungie has acknowledged that this is a highly requested feature, too. The assumption here is that Bungie is incompetent or not listening. For all we know, though, Vault expansion, itself, could just be part of a larger change that is yet-to-be-announced - or it simply could have already been slated for a future release. Not saying that it is, but a lot of changes have more moving parts than those we interact with. Had seen several people say that it should work like the Diablo inventory system, where you can buy more Vault space. I like that idea personally, apart from one thing - which of the countless currencies would we use to do it? Bungie is also likely aware that is a concern amongst us, as well. Who is to say that they are not rolling that into a larger change that addresses the sheer lack of a unified economy in the game? We simply do not know. But, it is fair to say that they are not sitting idly by, watching the world burn. I really do understand why they do not communicate more with us, and it is an unfortunate consequence of the game being put on a pedestal before it was released. Part of it is likely Bungie, themselves, not wanting to provide false leads on something being actively worked on - and part of it is probably some level of gag order, or preapproval requirement in communications, laid down by Activision. On one hand, I would love to get more knowledge into what is happening and how things are progressing, but on the other hand, I am all too familiar with how a small ripple can turn into a tidal wave, where the slightest snag will cascade to the point where it broadly impacts the best thought out plans. Like I've said elsewhere, I am not married to this game, or to Bungie, in any way. I feel that, in my own subjective opinion, that I got adequate value from what I paid. That says nothing about my own opinion, or those that would disagree. I bought the game for my own satisfaction, and I feel that requirement has been met. Does that mean that I want ten years of the exact same thing? Not at all. As the game mature, I expect that to be represented by what the game can offer me, iteration over iteration, that it had not previously offered me. If it gets to the point where it is solely about pushing content, then I will likely step away until I can get all (or a large portion) of that content in some level of a roll-up release. But then again, developers and publishers likely know that my perception there is not unique, either. Nothing can guarantee it, but they almost have to bring new levels of engagement into the game for the major releases.
-
Wow, a well thought out and intelligent response...are you sure we are still on the Destiny forums? Lol Thank you for knowing what you are talking about. And good on you sir.
-
Well said man.
-
Edited by Hoots711: 1/14/2015 4:48:21 PMjmFerris, i generally agree with your overview of the "software development practice" and agree that many of the tin-hat theories are reaching. But I believe you over look 2 very important facts. The first fact, and I will call it a fact, is the gross difference between what was advertised and what was sold. We have visual, dated proof of misleading, and even fraudulent, features and claims of this game. There are many reasons this could have happened. My guess is that it, like most things, is somewhere in the middle of cost cutting and schedule managing. We dont know the reasons, but we do know that what we all bought was not what was being marketed for the previous 2-3 years. The second, and this is key, the majority of the gaming market are not an educated consumers. Most sound consumers will change future purchase practices depending on current exceptions being met or not. I think it is naive to think that the activisions of the world don't know this and prey on it. For every educated consumer they lose, 10 more will buy dlc. If that is the case, what does that say about your product? I don't believe you can completely dismiss this entire video. He makes many sounds points and valid questions. He is not presenting facts, but using his opinions to persuade. I don't see anything wrong with it. Frankly, it is more refreshing then many of the mindless sheep i read on this forum. Good day.
-
Edited by jmferris: 1/14/2015 5:29:22 PMAgain, thank you for providing civil discussion points. It is encouraging to see that on here, for a change. My issue is not, and never has been, with anyone having an opinion that I disagree with. I do, however, take issue with the style that the current trend of YouTube monologues are gaining more credibility than actual two-sided discussions. To some extent, it is the new version of a wall of text that is difficult to make point by point counter-opinions to, which is why it is likely becoming more and more popular with each passing day. There is this misconception of "what was advertised". The Vi-Docs are not commercials, they are meant to be an inside look at the development process and the state of things as they currently stand. You are right - things do change, and sometimes those things will change on a daily basis. That is part of an iterative development process - making small progressions that can be tested, validated, rewritten, and are not as costly to change or discard if something does not work the way it was intended. But, as a few others have also pointed out, I do not think that Bungie was attempting to sell you on a single game in what they were saying and showing. The intent, in my opinion, has been to sell a franchise. If anything, I fault them for being too open, up-front; which is also likely partially why they have become less open today. If DeeJ as much as sneezes, it becomes proof of something. ;-) It is not a business's fault that a consumer chooses not to self-educate. "Preying upon" is a little extreme, in my opinion, and more shifting blame instead of sharing it. If you, as a consumer, do not set a standard and buy into a hype train, they have no obligation to exceed expectations. If they did, everyone would be yelling at them for delaying the game, yet again. I am confident that a good number of gamers who have left this franchise will not be returning to it, and I am confident that Bungie and Activision both know this, as well. It already has sent a message, and all anyone can do is wait and see how it will be addressed. The cycle, however, will not change, as long as gamers continue to perpetuate the "have to have it now" and "look, I get a preorder bonus" mentalities that are running rampant. Gaming and gamers are no exception to consumerism - at the end of the day, we are no less or more important than any other consumer marketplace. Like I said, my issue is not with his opinions, but through sensationalization of those opinions in a way that is meant to discourage productive dialogue. It is a soapbox, and nothing more. There is more discussion going on here, on both sides, than there are in the comments section of the video, which speaks volumes to that. The time it takes to "produce" these videos could be spent actually discussing issues, instead of self-promoting. In my own opinion, that says quite a lot, in itself. [b]Edit:[/b] Grammar.
-
Edited by TheMighty3X: 1/14/2015 7:42:08 PMThe fact that BDobbins is not presenting facts renders his entire argument pointless. Like...[i]literally[/i] pointless. Even your own post is nothing more than the same regurgitated "facts" (which for the record, they aren't) that everyone on your gravy train say. It's baseless speculation and/or mindless ranting, nothing more. Nothing any one of you have said to try to counter jmferris holds any weight, and it's become honestly comical sitting here reading you try...and the irony of someone who follows the opinion of someone else's opinion (keyword, because none of it is fact) calling other people sheep is equally comical.
-
While there are no cold hard facts (unless an actual Activision or Bungie employee comes forward, which is unlikely due to contracts) you have to admit, he makes a valid point about the way people and the gaming community are becoming complacent with how developers are churning out games as quick as possible and are cutting costs to maximize profits. It absolutely makes sense to divide your full game into purchased content in order to artifically raise the price from $60 to $95 ($60 + $35 for the season pass). And he is right, if the consumers allow companies to get away with this, they will do it again, and again.
-
Excellent
-
This post is a bastion of reason. A ship crafted of logic tenuously afloat a sea of inflammatory statements and rhetoric. We cannot allow jmferris' ark to sink. Everyone quick, load this post with two of everything (like and comment) before it is washed away by the flood...
-
I hope some people are actually educated by this instead of the foolhardy marching forward with their made-up hypothetical what-if "facts".
-
Bump Well said
-
Thank you for your post!
-
-
Edited by nickpeck38: 1/14/2015 3:44:05 PMWell said. I agree 100% but I still really wonder about the content we saw in so many pics and videos that is nowhere in the game. Sure stuff gets cut if it's not working, or maybe they changed it and we will see later on so who really knows. But it does make one wonder. But like you said, it's crazy that people have no clue what goes into projects like this (even smaller ones), the planning, the man power, the resources and most of all, budgets and deadlines. You don't just sit down and start making stuff up and then start coding 2 minutes later. Meetings, grouping up with the entire time to hammer out ideas, adding things, cutting things, pushing things off...
-
Spoken like a true Project Manager. I stand with you my friend. Ignorance is a disease that has plagued this generation too long.
-
I've wanted to post similar opinions before but haven't had the patience to word it so eloquently. Well done.
-
Haven't watched the video, have read your response to the video which is well-written and knowledgeable. I still respectfully disagree with your assessment of Bungie's/industry development practices as evidence that they did not cut content. Because they did cut content from the original game to anchor their DLC releases. This is one of the reasons we are left the fractured and seemingly lazy narrative structure provided in game. We need look no further than the Dark Below for evidence of this decision. Siege of the Warmind starts at the end of the Forgotten Shore mission leaves off. When you enter the 3rd room and activate the siege encounter/Omnigul, the screens show the familiar screen dump of planets and "future enemies" like the Vex. Why would we need this kind of teaser trailer when by this point, we've already encountered and beaten the Vex? You could argue that they're supposed to represent the upcoming episodes, but we both know that's not the case. Also, the only engram (blue/purple) drops I've picked up during this mission are all pre-DLC gear. This point could just be me though. Now, I'm not saying that Fist of Crota, The Awakening, and the Omnigul strike were completed before the initial release. I am saying that there will be other be tangible bits of evidence that one or two missions in the House of Wolves were planned for the original release and then cut, unless Bungie cleans up after themselves. It may not be a conspiracy. It may be an industry standard. But it doesn't feel like best practices or even effective development does it? Because if it was, we probably wouldn't have all these complaints about lack of content and poor narratives or having these rather awesome conversations in the forum. I just wanted to add my two cents!
-
Thank you for the civil response. :-) Personally, I do not think that the fact that they seemingly have practices in place and the final quality of the product are related. The choices that were made, from a software methodology point of view, are more around being able to cope with changing requirements, rather than what is actually being delivered. I do not disagree that content has been repurposed or repositioned to adjust for a change in the overall story arc. Instead, my disagreement has been around that there is a proven intent. At least to my eye, I see it to be them being forced to have to make adjustments to set up changes to content that is coming further down the line - more around having a product to even deliver than about milking the consumer. But, I would imagine that those changes feel piecemeal more due to the fact that providing cohesion would make them have to push back the release date, again. Personally, I would have been fine with it - but I am sure that many would not. RNG is a cold and cruel mistress. I did get a Legendary 331 weapon drop from Siege of the Warmind - or rather, should I say shards, which is what that shottie I got became after it was decrypted. In general, RNG baffles me - as I have my own conspiracy theory that it is not completely random. Right now, I play off of two accounts. One of them is continually blessed by RNGesus (my Kindergaurdian). He has had more Rare upconverts in three weekends of play than my primary has gotten since release. My older account is just mostly running dailies right now,
-
Well said.
-
You need to put on voice and make a video about the truth with a PvP montage, because what you say is the truth and apparently that is the only way to get the attention of the more ignorant side of the Bungie/Destiny community. I almost posted an identical rant on the YouTube video.
-
Thanks. Become the very thing I despise? I would likely disappear in a puff of logic. :-)
-
I thank you for throwing your, seemingly well experienced, opinion out there. It is a nice tempering to the video that OP posted. On a, I think related, note: do you think the lead designer leaving could have had anything to do with the game releasing as it was released?
