Was just in a Crota's End run(it's my most recent raid ,you can see it on my profile) with a bunch of 30's and 31's. It was a no-cheese run, as advertised on the lfg post, and for newbies we only died once(which was an intentional wipe, to reset the 2nd chest timer). (Before we started the bridge part, one kid asked if we were cheesing, we told him no. He said "oh okay I don't like cheesing either" L_L ) Bridge goes smoothly, some people die but we didn't wipe until we needed to reset the 2nd chest timer. Got the chest, went down, stopped to explain how this part works. Another kid says that he can use his sunsinger grenade to lure the witches out early. We remind him(again) that we aren't cheesing, ffs.... Now, since this is the hardest part of the raid I was expecting us to be here for a good 20 minutes. We killed Ir Yut on the very first try and cleared everything out rather flawlessly o3o Now we get to Crota, where a perfect run turned to shit almost instantly. The only two people that knew what they were doing were Raza and Meow. Everyone else were as lost as puppies, and one guy even admitted he's only ever cheesed Crota. So we're like "okay, time for you to learn!" I didn't bother to check everyone' weapons this run, but if I had I would have noticed that they're using The Devil You DOn't(not upgraded), Murmur(on Crota....), Dragon's Breath(not upgraded...), The Devil You know(not upgraded....).... You get the point, right? Oh, and did I forget, that kid asked if we were cheesing Crota. I almost told him to shut the hell up, but wanted to get this over with quickly(hehe). First time we do it, we die because the guy on Boomer duty isn't doing his job. Second time, we get Crota's shield down, The boomers get us because the guy on Boomer duty decides he wants to be on Crota duty now. This happens two more times before the 2 good guys leave. So we invite two new people from a member's friends' list(who has joined the part earlier and kept bugging us, asking if we were cheesing him). I asked if thye knew what they were doing, one guy says yeah but the other is like [b][redflag][/b]"I think....no, I mean I have a pretty good ide...yeah I know what I'm doing" [b][/redflag][/b] I take the sword, we clear both sides I take down the Swordbearer and get into position. Tell them to take his shield down, and someone dies because they rocketed themselves in the face. I look over there and those turtle-necks are all hiding in the left room, both Boomers still on the balcony with all their hp. We try a second time, nobody rockets themselves. When I tell them to shoot, this is when I realize that I might as well have been taking down Crota's shield down by myself, because when I jump up his shield is only halfway gone, and some of them stopped shooting for whatever reason. also, they die by boomers again(can you guess why?). It was an impossible run because I could only afford one sword run because they were taking eons to take his shield down even once. I bet they already cheesed him since I left, too. Can't wait until Bungie patches the that and the bridge glitch, because I'm pretty sure I won't be seeing them in the hard raid. I already did the raid on all my characters, and was just doing this to help the Christmas noobs. But c'mon guys, how can you expect me to help you if you won't help yourself. Cheesing isn't helping, it'll only hurt you badly in the long run. And before you say "don't raid with noobs": 99% of lfg and this site are cheesing groups. My friends like to raid without cheesing, but don't really want to raid multiple times every week. This isn't the first group like this I've met. I've come across a bunch of 32's that didn't know how to beat Crota legit :\ TLDR; Say no to cheese.