I have nothing to add, only that I agree 100% with your post.

OP so on point! This game is going down the shitter with all the complaints that force Bungie to make changes where changes aren't needed.

Wow, Just wow. That's all I can say at the moment. Leogan, everything you've written and the way you've put your passion into it is amazing. Everything I have been feeling and have been wanting to say myself but have been unable to find the words, you have seemingly with easy found yourself and have managed to write what I feel to be a truly compelling argument.. I'm glad to see that there is someone else out there who believes as I do. And I am sure that without a doubt that there are many others who like me just have not been able to find the words to speak out like you have. If more people like you could find it in themselves to write something so compelling as you have, then I think Bungie would be a fool not to listen. As it stands now, I believe that everything you have said to be true and very possible. If bungie continues down the path that is has begun with Destiny, then people will begin to lose faith in bungie and possibly stop playing what started out to be such a great game. They might even stop playing games by Bungie all together. To not take into deep consideration of what you've worked so hard to say, I honestly think Bungie would be foolish beyond measure.

Personally I think Bungie did not need to triage this wildly popular and critically acclaimed raid. They need to make the next raid better. Spend time giving us the next awesome thing faster, better, and more engrossing.

I have a suggestion that would have solved the whole problem as it stood to begin with. Simply have the relic removed from the carrier's hand and put back in the center of the arena if the carrier tries to jump onto one of those platforms. This way teams can still have snipers to take out enemies/Templar when needed, but other groups would absolutely have to kill oracles as the relic carrier would not be able to simply cleanse everyone in a timely manner. The said snipers would have to jump back to the arena before the ritual and would have to survive the enemies on the ground as well before getting cleansed. This seems like the easiest way that anyone could make it, and would keep the best parts of both worlds for the raid, you can use strategy and planning and yet still have the absolute chaos of the battlefield on the ground.

[quote]EDIT 1: I want to thank everyone who participated in the discussion so far. I didn't expect this topic to take off when I posted it last night, but I guess I wasn't alone in my thoughts. Special thanks to people who educated me about the Bonus Chest fact which you can't get through the platform Cheese, and everyone who maintained a positive, constructive tone (as well as stayed on topic). EDIT 2: Spelling and grammar, 'cause it was driving me nuts. There's been a lot of noise about the weapon nerfing/balancing during the 10/14/14 Hotfix. Most of it was pretty predictable. This isn't the first time [url=http://kotaku.com/death-threats-follow-small-call-of-duty-tweak-888324886]weapon stats have been tweaked in a FPS game[/url]. Arguments for and against have been pretty standard fare. Overall the changes seem fairly well calculated to balance the experience and extend enjoyment for the broadest subsection of players possible. To these I say 'Hoorah!'. I always liked Scout Rifles, now I am more justified in doing so. But the Kill Volume on the sniper platforms in the Templar encounter bothers me. It bothers me a lot. Please allow me to explain. I'm not against adjusting risk vs. reward. A true Cheese Strategy which makes a challenge trivial consequently trivializes the rewards that come after, and that is not good for games (this is why Atheon probably should have been patched first, but maybe solving that one is trickier and will take a bit of time). However, the "4 seconds until we kill you for playing the game incorrectly" solution to this is wrong on so many levels. An easy fix, yes, but quite possibly the laziest, and least fun way to patch the encounter. I worry about its implications on the overall philosophy behind what the game is supposed to be about. My problem is that it's almost always better to incentivize than to penalize. Invisible walls and kill zones are extremely heavy-handed penalization. They are a slap in the face, a clear message that you are trying to do something you were not intended to do. But finding an easy way to meet a challenge isn't always an exploit. In fact, finding a cool way to accomplish a task can be just as satisfying as getting loot for completing it, especially if you've been banging your head against the wall, failing constantly ahead of the suddenly successful idea. This is why my clan initially said we didn't want to watch Raid guide videos; we wanted the thrill of finding our own way. This stuff is gold, in terms of design. It isn't loot you have to make models, art, and stats for, but it can be just as essential. Slamming the door on it is, in my humble opinion, far worse than nerfing a cool weapon's damage. It's more like hacking players' inventories and [i]deleting[/i] that cool weapon, leaving a note saying "You are having fun incorrectly. You are playing [b]wrong[/b]" in its place. The sniper platforms were made. They were made reachable through our cool flight/jumping abilities. They included strategic cover. How could anyone [b]not[/b] anticipate players not wanting to try and use them? If we are worried about Cheese, here are some alternative ideas: [i]Make it tougher, enemies adapt[/i] - Goblins throw more grenades, target the platforms - Harpies fly out to platforms - Templar can hit platforms from longer range - Templar teleports one random player from platform instead of himself back into the arena [i]Make it cooler not to Cheese It[/i] - Include an achievement and/or additional rewards (shaders, emblems) for completing the encounter without anyone being marked by the Oracles (something you can't avoid by hiding on the platforms during the last phase, you just have to cleanse constantly because Oracles aren't dying). Patching how the encounter reacts to player strategies, rather than just killing them for using part of the map you designed and made available leaves the choice in the players' hands. They can still do it, but will probably choose a different strategy not because they feel forced, but because they will now figure out something that works better, and it will still feel rewarding because A) verisimilitude is maintained (of course hyper-intelligent robots are going to be smart enough to counter my camping), and B) you didn't have to slap them right in the ego with a kill volume which just seems to broadcast: [b]We didn't think of this! We will now wave a wand and you will play how we intend, your creativity is not the goal here, ours is[/b]. I like raiding. I want to keep figuring out new raiding mechanics and strategies with the friends I've made in this game. I don't want kill volumes to be the go to hotfix tool for future raids where players will inevitably find the paths of least resistance. Please keep this in mind and leave me my illusions of choice. They are really fun. Thank you for your time.[/quote] Honestly but she needs to hire some mmo devs. Also you don't have to nerf something for PvE for PvP. Thirdly, the Templars phase is crazy over done now it needs to be turned back even on hard mode

In all honisty bungie should have just said -blam!- it we learned our lesson and gave us a free raid but nooooooo that would mean they lose money lol

Liked and shared.

Well said couldn't agree more with your post

I like the patch. It forced my fireteam to find a new way in which to attack the boss instead of the low risk way of jumping to the platform.

I'm not a bungie fan, only played halo 1 when it was pc released. I've not followed anything since. I thought Bungie was supposed to be a talent group..? This has been amateur hour.

I completely 100% agree as well.

All these "fixes" Bungie is making to Destiny....most of em are treating us like kids. The only fix everybody agrees on was the Cryptarch and making bosses less OP on the easy difficulties and what have you,everytime we play outside the box within the game Loot Caves, Boss strategies they call it an Exploit and restrict us.....Really? Why make a Raid thats based on cooperation and break an encounter for gamers who beat it cooperatly? Leogan has made great points,for my final two cents on this post since its an off topic issue. Why did Bungie make a clan system in the first place especially 100 members if only three people can do story missions and strikes. The only thing right now people in clans can do is Raids and Crucible with 6 people in a firestrike team. Hopefully in the future especially for hard missions is for a whole team of 6 can participate in everything and not just for two game modes

You can push the Templar off the map without teleporting, and get a free chest.. In review of the patch, it's crap, but atleast more people will be trying this method more.. But as for bungie refining our experience, our experiences are our own... This is a our world, not theirs.. They may be able to patch their game so we can only do one method.. I wanted to say bungie is brainwashing us, but I think it's a bad idea.. Let me know

I don’t really care if they restrict players from going onto the floating rocks with a countdown death timer and it doesn't shatter my suspension of disbelief. I think there are much more important problems in the game right now. What I don't understand is why didn't anyone think of this while the game was in development? Didn't anyone think to themselves, [i]mmm… I wonder if the fight would be easier if we just spammed the clease button and head-glitched the boss behind that floating rock?[/i] No-one thought of that? It's almost as bad as the oversight in Borderlands 2 where players combined the Bee with the Conference Call and killed the raid boss in 2 seconds.

This and other things (no music volume control, e.g.) make me believe more and more that Bungie are a bunch of arrogant pricks who treat their customers like immature kids they can order around and press anything on they like too.