This thread is inspired by another: view original post
I decided to write this post after being inspired by another Feedback Forum post called: [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/72206672/0/0]Honest Feedback on: Scrapping ships[/url]
In essence the author of that post surmised that his 9 Rare Ships serve no purpose in the game because when he dismantles them he gets nothing and the two NPC who should be begging him for them (Shipwright/always sending us out for spare parts & Dead Orbit/needs more ships to get out of the solar system) look at him like a confused dog for thinking he might be able to do business with them for his unwanted ship salvage.
This highlights the biggest problem for most PvE players and a huge issue for Destiny in general. Bungie forgot the RPG. Now I am an old man and as such existed in the world long before the original Everquest came along and wreaked havoc on the concept of the pen and paper role playing game. However, at its core good RPG adventures still share some very basic common elements.
[b]Setting[/b]
Bungie has defined or rather ill-defined a world that is far into the future of our own planet. The Golden Age has come and gone via the Traveler and the darkness, the Traveler's arch-enemy was fought back, but is coming again. There is only one city left on earth, protected by the Traveler tho we don't know how as apparently the Traveler used the last of it's energy to send the ghosts forth to...raise the dead, to raise the Guardians. There are four factions of bad out there though we really don't have any concept of their motivations. Are they the minions of the Darkness or are they travelling inwards in the Sol System to avoid it as well? Oh and there are the Awoken and Exos. The Awoken apparently feld to escape the first fall, ran into the darkness and were "changed" and then decided to build a housing development in an asteroid belt. Exos are... robots?
[b]Story[/b]
I think we have all said enough about the lack of story. You wake up with outside the wall to the Cosmodrome, which is also the wall the the last city? (or is there another wall that the Titans built?) and you listen to your new buddy Dinklebot because who doesn't trust floating bits from Tron with the power of full speech and necromancy? You want to find a spaceship...so you can fly to a city on the same planet? Oh but then Dinklebot realizes something basically one of a kind, a warp core, is in the EXACT spot you just left and you have to go back. Fighting through the Fallen is no big deal. Tribalistic scavenger race picking what's left of earth clean and OH MY GOD why is that lady floating in the air shooting plasma balls at me wreathed in a flame shield? Apparently she and her Knights hate the Fallen too so WHY DID BOTH SIDES STOP SHOOTING EACH OTHER TO SHOOT AT ME? Okay Dinklebot, explain what the hell is going on? The Hive you say, and they own the Moon? Why are they here? They want Earth, a planet of scrap metal ruins just as bad as the Fallen. Okay got it. Yeah you're right, we should go see, whats his name again, The Speaker? Apparently the Speaker didn;t have time to tell me what going on. He had a line of no body at his door but I bet it takes a lot of time to get those robes pressed. Wait what, off to the Moon, right. Ok Temple of... whoa who was that robot girl? You see the point. The story is disjointed and fails at the core element of any RPG story from a player perspective,[i] it has no hook[/i]. There is no reason for you to blindly follow the path that the Ghost sets before you and trust it. Compare Halo to Destiny. In the first 15 minutes of Halo you determine you are an important soldier who has been in cryo-sleep but was awakened when his ship was attacked. Fight to the bridge, save your shipmates and WHOA what is that ring. <- Thats a Hook.
[b]Create Interesting Characters[/b]
There are three factions whose purpose appears to be to sell you different variants of the same type of legendary armor based on how well you do in the Crucible, the Guardian vs Guardian training ground. Dead orbit wants to get out of dodge before the darkness returns. New Monarchy wants to reestablish order and government via the last city and Future War Cult thinks that the cycle of war will never end and so is always preparing. However NONE of that is in the game. You have to read the Grimoire to get a sense of it. The three factions all only take the currency of the Crucible Proving Ground, they apparently are not interested in the core currency of the Last City, glimmer. Nor do they care much about what you actually do to fight back the against the four factions of enemies tho they are constantly offering you patrol mission bounties which award you with...Glimmer. Hmm wonder where their mountain of it is when they don't want any of mine for that helmet they are selling. Arach Peter Stormare is always telling me how resources are low in his beacon messages, so does Glimmer not buy food around here?
Moving beyond the factions I have to go ask Nathan Fillion what to do because he is the Hunter Vanguard Liason and... whats that, he really has very little information about anything, including the Vanguard, and is also only selling me Legendary Gear but for a different currency? Okay well I can at least go talk to the shipwright, she can break down some of these ships I have to let me improve the ship I actually fly or my sparrow which saves my butt constantly but takes a beating. Wait, she doesn't want your spare ships becuase she is too busy recording a beacon for a Venus patrol mission for... ship part scrap. Okay. I know I just woke up yesterday but apparently the darkness drained common sense from these people.
Okay well I am sure that Cryptarch fellow can explain some things, His order are supposedly very knowledgeable. Oh apparently he is only interested in the effects of punching me in my gut over and over and over to see if the purple bruises will turn blue as some kind of joke.
Banshee, the lady who sells the same shaders, the postal robot, the bartender in the hangar who sells no drinks and has no name. No flavor to any of the characters. The notable exception is Xur and the Queen. Both are shrouded in darkness and mystery and I want to know SO much more about them.
[b]Creating Challenges[/b]
Man, did you hear, the Queen of the Reef sent an Emmisary to the Tower (but for some reason is still letting the Bountybot hand out her orders). This will be awesome, she has answers and if I work my way into her favor I can learn somethi..... seriously, we did all of this stuff last week and she is asking us to do it again. Well the reward will be goo... no? She has decreed that the dismantling of any equipment bearing the symbol of the Reef will mean instant expulsion from her court? Well that stinks because I could seriously use some of the materials she gave me for taking down Phogoth to improve my rebreather on my helmet. To hell with this. She has no answers, and her cape is ugly.
Hey Nathan Fillion let me get ths straight, people are starving down there in the city and we are fighting a war but we had the spare ship fuel to keep that guy's Iron Banner wreathed in flame for a week like its a grave at Arlington Cemetery from Earth of Old? Okay okay I'll go check it out. Wow, this feels just like the Crucible proving grounds.... because it is.
Okay, so Dinklebot you remember when we were in the Archive and you told me about this... Vault of Glass? Yeah well lets go find that because At this point I have been onto Drakisis' Ketch 9 times since Monday and at least it will be something new for us to do. (9 Hours later) Okay lets never do that again. You know what, I bet we could get more of our Guardian brethren to join us in the fight against Atheon if they could improve their gear from the materials the Queen gave us last week, but yeah, I forgot, she is a bitch. Super hot, but in the end she is probably sleeping with her brother. You'd be the expert on that right Dinklebot?
[b]Finishing Touches[/b]
Any good RPG gets polish before being presented. Destiny feels like it had the opposite done. It feels like paint stripper was poured on the world and the descernable bits that were left in the drain pan were splashed on the Grimoire wall at Bungie.net
The PvE vs PvP argument is another thing entirely. I was putting up 2.5-3.4 K/D in Iron Banner last night, but I hate PvP. A good RPG presents you with that choice. You can elect to engage in PvP but you don't have to in order to reach your goals. Destiny as it stands in an MMOFPS that took the idea of RPG elements and thought that Two Worlds was a good example of where to begin.
This was intended to be serious in spots and funny in spots and I hope Bungie gives it a read. I've been playing RPGs in some form for the last 25 years and have designed my own game worlds numerous times as well as the adventures that go with them. If you want to revive the RPG side of things Bungie, hire a good GM from the Pen and Paper world and let him write a story.
English
#feedback
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https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/169838330/0/0
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Tldr. Bump for the title alone.
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They forgot the MMO too! A dozen players who can't talk to each other in the effing "social" area, and 12 person pvp isn't massive multiplayer, in 2014 its pathetic. You can go into free to play MMOs from a decade ago and have 4 times that many people in the freaking starting zones. Destiny is a lobby shooter.
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Edited by AnubisXIX82: 10/23/2015 5:28:04 AMThey did hire a 'loremaster' for the game. Months after it was released....
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Edited by aboniks: 10/10/2014 8:23:49 PMThanks for the shout out, Oz. From one old DM to another...we're on the same page. I'm off to my pathfinder campaign for the night...which is a reminder, when I start feeling overly critical of electronic RPGs , that even a well designed system can be screwed up if you start putting too many babies into the bathwater. You can't change your mind when you run short on time, and take out half of each baby. You end up with a big mess, the babies don't hang together well, and the townfolk rise up with pitchforks and torches. [i]Nobody likes half a baby, Bungie.[/i] Sometimes the mistakes don't show up right away, but once they do, [b]they need to be acknowledged, and they need to visibly be queued for attention[/b]...the hands-off approach to feedback management only aggravates your players. Bungiekins...show us your workflow wall, let us know what issues you're working on, what stage you're at, what has priority. Open source projects do this to great effect. See github. If you want a better class of feedback, let the people who give it to you [b]see[/b] that you're listening. The gameplay in Destiny is fairly solid, (shooting a mob for the 19,078th time in the Cosmodrome is only slightly less satisfying than it was for the first time) and justifiably got the priority treatment at the expense of everything else, pre-release...but a month into it we're still watching gameplay patches drop, while the rest of the world stagnates, half-formed and internally inconsistent. All those other parts of the world that got left on the shelf are going to have to be deployed, and the sooner the better. Patches happen, and no design is perfect, but seeing "removed occasional quickscoping" come at us down the pipe when the world still doesn't make much sense is not reassuring for fans of sci-fi storytelling. What this game needs, overall, is a continuity director. (Preferably one with final say on design team tasking.)
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I'm quite young and have played a few table tops notably D&D. Now this man points out everything you got wrong Bungie. Now please explain to me how a multimillion dollar corporation that could hire anyone or any amount of people couldn't think of a story? Honestly I've seen better campaigns in my group thought of in a day by one person! Oh wait your lead story teller left? No excuse should have delayed the game longer.
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Destiny: the MMOFPS that forgot: -RPG -Practical loot system -Story -Half the Content -Player Input -Sociability -Uniqueness Great art tho!
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You are right on all accounts, but these Bungie idiots will not hear you. They have built a FPS shooting rang, wich is fun, combined with a Barbie Ken we can win new outfits for. And I love to put my Ken Warlock into different outfits. I have given up any hope they will find somewhere a good story and reboot the whole thing.
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This game is not meant to be a tradtional rpg. it is a rpg but not in the manner that most who played rpgs would expect it to be. Never expect a game to always follow tradtion just because other have in the past. This game is attempting to be something different thatn just any one the aspects that it is. So it is not going to focus on any one aspect to the exclusion of the others. Whaaa... I have to pvp to get exotics.. I dont like pvp.. dont make me pvp.. whaaa!!!!.. get over it. The game was not made for it to play just how you wanted or expected it to play. Nor should it be tailored to just any one person and how they want it to play either. You want those exotics, then go pvp.. or else just deal with it. Whaaa.. cant get mats from teh queens items to level your gear quickly.. tough, it was not meant to be abused like that. Just like the cave was not meant to abaused as it was. Tough if you dont like it was changed and the game was made a little harde to get mats for uprades.. There is no reason for the ships to give mats, for there is nothing special about the ships, they just take you from planet to planet. So no reason to really need anything from them. There is no need to upgrade them, so no need for mats from them. The speeders can get upgrades from xur, so no real need to get mats from them for upgrades either. Not everything has to or needs to be upgradeable in a rpg game. Not every item in a game has to give out mats when it is destroyed just because someone thinks it does, or because some other game did. Not every game has to follow the same method of play as every other game similar to it. Tough if you dont like or understand that simple fact. Whaaa the social contact level in the game is not enough. I dont have 100000000 emotes I can do to be stupid looking when doing them. The game was not built for that aspect of rpg. The rpg aspect is in the leveling of the toons, not in doing everything that every other rpg has done in the past. And no it does not need to do all of those things either. There is a story, just not presented in the manner that everyone seemed to expect as in the tradtional cgi cutscene driven games.. plus you were not meant to learn about everything in the first game, You were not meant to have a full story and know all of what happened and why in the first game. Tough if you dont like the card as being part of the content. for yes even though it is not directly accessable in the game it is still part of the content regardless if anyone tries to say othewise. Did any of the Star Wars movie's explain it all? No they did not. Did any Lotr explain it all in one movie? No, they did not. Not every game has to have 40+ hours of game play just because that is what some have become used to in games. I guess you never heard of or played Section 8? A fps game that had a story that was only 2 hours long from begining to end and that was on the hard setting. And yet the players of that game did not whine nearly as much as the players of this game has for a story that is over that lenght by far if you do every mission, strike, bounties and patrol and dont try and rush them. WoW some people will cry about anything in today's world it seems when things are not handed to them or they are not allowed to do as they think they should all the time...because they feel they are entitled to for just a price of 60$....
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well you bought it so if you don't like it don't play it, bungie has your money get over it
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Please be my DM or GM whichever you prefer.
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This whole game feels like an introduction. With that being said yes it is a shitty one at that, there is tons of lore behind all of this but yet nothing in the entire game sheds any light on anything. So far all we know is we have been dead for a long time and there is gonna be a lot of shit we don't understand... but here's a gun and you can start by killing shit with no explanation why you should kill shit. Awesome they gave me a gun and this floating robot wants me to shoot everything while he unlocks doors and sets off alarms. Absolutely ZERO character development as the OP said just in the first few moments in Halo they introduce the Master Chief as a bad ass super solider that is first tasked with defending his Navy space faring ship and the AI Cortana of which shows us she has a personality of her own within the first few minutes of meeting her. Then you proceed to an escape pod that lands on a planet like ring and your just like WTF just happened. OMG mind blown in the first 20 minutes of game play. Destiny has nothing... every time you see something cool in the game your like... "damn I wish I knew what was going on here or wait why are these guys shooting at me wait what?" Then you finally make it to the Speaker and your like "Finally someone who has some answers and then BLAM he says he could tell us stuff but fails to mention why he won't he just kinda leaves us hanging. Letting us know he knows pretty much everything there is to know but gives us no option to inquire and doesn't tell us jack shit like WTF bro I should toss you off the Tower just for the LOL factor. The MOST HORRIBLE game intro EVER IMO. The Grimore Cards tell us an interesting story in pieces if you wish to find them and read into it but this IMO is pointless if not found "in game". Great game Awesome mechanics garbage story telling... ugh
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Excellent post, well presented.
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I was with you all the way until you said two worlds.... That game was AWFUL I played it for 2 hours and tossed it in the trash didn't even want to turn it in because I felt getting rid of the game would be doing a service to my fellow gamers
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Bottom line is that after level 18, you have already completed 100% of the game's content. There is no reason to continue playing after that. Unless you want to experience the buggy raid which failed to impress.
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It also forgot the MMO.
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It's worth the time to read. Good thread, and I agree.
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To be technical, they didn't forget rpg. Rpg stands for role play game. You can do that anywhere at any time, even in destiny, or without it... But yeah, lol Basically they tried to put in rpg and mmo mechanics into an fps that has the typical fps content length of 6-8 hours... And then forgot to include a story that can be understood so we can have a reason to actually care about what we're doing. Seriously, I still have no idea what's going on in that game story wise. All I know is that we helped Rasputin I think? Somehow? But now he's in our way or something for a reason that isn't stated at all? Why are vex as bad as the stranger made them out to be? And the fact that we got a gate lord'a head because apparently only they can get into the black garden? What the hell IS the black garden? Why are the vex in stasis? How did the hive get a piece of the traveller what were they doing to it? Etc... Basically I have no idea what the hell was going on. And then there's further weirdness on why the factions have most of the good gear when guardians are fighting for human survival and how the gear can only be obtainable by having guardians fight each other rather than the darkness? Among other things like previously mentioned where dead orbit seem to have no interest in ships you find while the shipwright has no desire to take any ships you don't want?
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Here's a big question:Why did the Vex make a spire with the appearent sole purpose if charging a gatelords eye? Seriously? Unless they WANTED you to kill Zydon, take the eye, enter the garden and kill the heart...conspiring against the one thing they cannot know, and therefore cannot really destroy? Grimoire Cards reveal the Vex have a hyper-realistic simulation going on, so maybe they saw your coming aheadof time. They really seem like they should be too smart otherwise. Heck, even at the black garden, its like how would a gatelord actually open that? Just pop his eye out? What the heck,Vex?
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This has nothing 2 do with mmo look @ warframe the gameplay from destiny is much better. But for the rest everything is better in warframe we need that stuff in destiny.Like clan area,building weapons armor or whatever,social thing so you can talk with people and alot other stuff.People that have played warframe know what im talking bout.
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Well said, didn't Bungie hire one of those modder a from Skyrim? What happened there? If anyone could've wrote a good story it coulda been him!
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Well said fellow gamer, this universe and idea deserves much better. Bump bump bump
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Well said.
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My lord you touched on exactly how I feel with as much sarcasm as I would us you my good man are a gentleman and a scholar bump x10 I had some good laughs also while reading