I like your deep exploration of upgrading weapons as we build names for our guardians. I also really liked the thought of finding a blueprint for an exotic weapon and questing across the galaxy to assemble it. Maybe that could be one of the limited time events that bungie has been hinting at? That being said, I don't think that every weapon that you find should have the potential to become exotic one day. I feel like some of the magic of having an exotic weapon would come from the fact that it's not familiar, or normally available. I think that upgrading your favorite gun would be amazing, but I also think that it should stop just before exotic. Maybe there could be another limited quest where you could turn a piece of armor, or a gun into an exotic. Having to choose only one thing to ascend to an exotic level every once-in-a-great-while could make the choice feel more meaningful. One way or another it's all exciting think about and I can't wait for the beta!

[quote][b]4) The Second Implementation[/b][/quote]With the previous goal in mind, the next implementation we'll try is one that allows players to select a number of special abillities from a preset list to place on their newly ascended exotic. This implementation gives players maximum control over the final product of the ascension process and will allow them to create the exotic that they feel best matches their character. However, this approach, though very appealing, is fraught with problems. The core issue with this second implementation is that the control gained by players is control lost by Bungie, and with that loss of control, the feature becomes much harder to balance. Keep in mind that while it is in Bungie's best interests to create balanced exotics with clear strengths and weaknesses, players feel no such obligation, and will try to minmax their choices to create the strongest possible items. Bungie cannot allow that to go unchecked; if the ascended exotics become too powerful, then nobody would want to use any of the dropped exotics, and that's a thematic portion of the sandbox that would go to waste. To prevent this from happening, Bungie can control which abillities players can place on their ascended exotics, but this system is difficult to balance in a way that also feels satisfying to players. Any one abillity can be too strong when combined with any other abillity, and any given abillity set can be too strong when placed on the right base equipment. An edge abuse case caused by any of those situations is difficult to fix without causing a rippling effect that can hurt otherwise balanced exotics simply because they share an abillity or base equipment with the prime offender. I'm concerned that the only way to ensure that the system is ultimately balanceable is to homogenize the set of abillities available for ascension. If every abillity is safe, the game certainly wouldn't be unbalanced, but it also wouldn't be very interesting either. At that point, we'd have the opposite problem on our hands; nobody would want to turn their superior equipment into a "pseudo" exotic when they could just use a "real" exotic from a drop. Again, this would be a rather unfortunate waste of what could have been a very interesting feature. Not to mention, the exotics ascended by players through this approach just wouldn't have the same charm and magic as any Bungie created exotic. This isn't to say that our community isn't capable of creativity, it's just that thematic flavor isn't something you can really select out of a series of drop down menus. There's also a few issues with conveyance and readibillity that comes from letting players place several out of many abillities onto a piece of equipment which makes this approach less than desirable. It's possible to make an approach like this work with enough iteration, but I feel that it's far too clunky to be efficient and I feel that it doesn't truly fulfill the fantasy of the exotic tier. What if there was a way to give players options, but in a way that was safer, more powerful, and easier to balance? [b]Destiny Speculation: Exotic Ascension continues on the next post. [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605626&path=1]Please click this Hyperlink to continue reading.[/url][/b][spoiler][b]Table of Contents 1) [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605619]Introduction / Original Post[/url] 2) [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605658&path=1]The Sub-Exotic Tiers and Standard Ascension[/url] 3) [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605637&path=1]The Exotic Tier and the First Implementation[/url] 4) >> The Second Implementation << 5) [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605626&path=1]The Third Implementation[/url] 6) [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605621&path=1]Conclusion[/url][/b][/spoiler]

I thought about everything you're saying, and I think there's an even more obvious solution. Why would you need to be able to upgrade from superior to exotic? It does make sense to be able to go from basic up to superior, but that's enough for it to be usable; remember, players can only carry one exotic. That means that everyone will be using superiors a lot, and your weapon/armor wouldn't be underpowered. Another variation is also possible: it may be that players are feeling restricted by underpowered superior weaponry; in this case, I think Bungie should just make exotics [b]no stronger than superiors.[/b] However, they will still be immediately recognizable by the unique abilities they possess. In short, I think that tier ascension makes sense, but exotics should be only obtainable by loot drop. They need not be stronger than superiors, and cannot make superiors unusable, but their abilities must be exclusive.

This is an interesting idea, regarding advancing basic to common to superior, however I'm not sure I like the idea of being able to advance all the way to exotic. Being able to create them yourself I think diminishes the value (at least lore wise, if not effort wise) for those who find them as rare loot. I understand that you suggest requiring rare components and possibly blueprints, but I think finding an exotic hand cannon would feel a lot better than just finding the blueprint for one. maybe blueprints would work for another class of weapons, but I think exotics should stay purely as rare loot.

Does your Ascension model account for ordinary weapon mods/upgrades like scopes, grips, butts, and barrels? I think overall the third model is best. AS far as your idea on how to make players think twice about ascending their favorite Superior into an exotic could be adding the element of risk with a bit of randomness. The random element not being a gimmick like ascending and random attributes being added to the weapon, but by having the rare component, or the shard of the traveler come in different flavors. Each "flavor-shard" would affect the ascension process in a way that could be vaguely alluded to, but ultimately the "flavor" would give your weapon some kind of special power like the special abilities of closing time or red death. The exotic ascendance weapon powers that players put on weapons would have an inherent chance to also include a random negative affect that should somehow alter the player's approach to combat, that is until the player has reached a certain number of kills/support points/damage accrued or other accumulative action similar to a reverse xp bar. Once that threshold is reached the player would have full attunement with the weapon, symbolizing the guardian's struggle to harness his weapon's new power. The guardian who becomes one with his weapon should then have the choice to rename it, because at that point, when a player has put so much time into it, that weapon will represent a part of his/her legacy, and a legend of it's own. Player-made exotic weapon powers should all present some kind of hurdle like that, so if the weapon is traded, the 'curse' will reset. This curse, while a only minor game changer to a powerful guardian, will be crippling to a new player though some kind of scaling mechanic. I think that some of these ideas could be used to bring great balance to the force.

Very interesting read. Weapon class ascension seems like it has to be in the game. Although I imagine most weapons will only ascend to the "Superior" class, leaving "Exotic" class weapons as the few rare weapons that are hard to obtain. I haven't actually finished reading all of the sub threads, but I look forward to reading it. Thanks Hylebos, your threads always make me think twice about mechanics in Destiny.

That's a good read. I had assumed that we would be trading up to other weapons, but this being a long-term game it would make sense for our current weps to "become legend" as we do. I think this is a really good idea, and it completely fits in with their ideas of player investment. But I don't like how in WoW people are just hunting items based on stats. The obsession with getting "that new gear" seems to be the driving point of that game apart from level grinding. Any implementation I think will come with an amount of control from up top. Bungie is opening up this world unlike they have with games before it, but I think people will run wild and break immersion/fictional sensibility. In TF2 a naming system for example works because the game doesn't take itself seriously at all, and Valve has an almost completely hands off approach to stylistic choices. Game mechanics on the other hand... In TF2 we see all kinds of user created pieces in use in that game. I mean people literally model their own items and submit them for review by the community and Valve, and in turn if an item is popular enough it makes it into a drop or crate or seasonal celebration. It's just that when it comes to weapons, ultimately it's up to Valve to decide how it fits in with the other weapons already in the game as far as balance goes. I think that giving players a great deal of stylistic control is a very good idea. But I think about it this way, there is something about the exotics you find that inspires the imagination about an unspoken past, and the name is just more of a placeholder. Perhaps we can have all of these stylistic things minus the in game naming to keep with the spirit of the world. That way we don't have profane and silly names getting attached to people's items. There is something underestimate and mysterious about an interestingly adorned weapon with no name to speak of. It's also very western i.e. "The Man with No Name" which has also been referenced at GDC. I think letting people have that capacity to stylize their items but putting the functionality of the weapon on predefined upgrade trees, trees plural, is a good way to go. Allow Bungie to make sandbox decisions, but make the functional end result open-ended enough for players to feel like it's their own creation.

"Let's put one of those beefy arms back on him for good measure. That looks really good. ... Comin' out of the back of his neck there..." Please tell me I'm not the only one who immediately thought of this when I saw the Bicep Bazooka.

So you are saying that in a way we could make our own exotic gear/weapons as we play? I really hope you're right, that sounds badass.

Glad to finally see these thoughts hit the forums. I will start with my skepticism of the notion of ascending to the exotic tier based off the quote from the recent weekly update in which it was noted that a large number of Bungie employees took the game home and later questioned the loot system due to a very small number obtaining an exotic. That seems to imply that no one could just "work hard enough" and make one after putting in the hours. That being said my thoughts on the potential concept follow: I think your comparison to Pokemon brings up a nice possibility. You mentioned it in respect to weapon naming - but it would seem as though the most fitting possibility would be a simple fixed evolution. So perhaps not every weapon can ascend to exotic. However, I feel as though this evolution would likely be covered (if possible) through the existing upgrade trees. Thunderlord was a very simple example but with upgrade trees you can essentially accomplish all of the effects you describe here. Branching for example would allow you to tailor a specific weapon with desired traits, possibly at the exclusion of others. And so if this "evolution" is handled just by the upgrade trees alone - perhaps weapon tier isn't based on starting functionality but just end possibilities. Common weapons would have very shallow trees with standard end of the line upgrades. Exotics would start the journey comparable to their common counterparts but they have better end game possibilities. I imagine closing time requires quite the effort to unlock the ability to pick up ammunition remotely while cloaked (if those options are not exclusive). You could still require special work on the gun at various points in the tree between milestone upgrades including a weapon smith in the city or affixing a piece of the traveller. This possibility doesn't allow every weapon to be a true end game candidate as would your theories. But it does keep exotics rare. Truly exotic weapons here are only obtainable through a bit of luck paired with the hard work required to upgrade. This brings up the question: "What about fully upgraded weapons that are sold?" Does their new buyer automatically receive the upgrades? Or are they required to put in their own time with the weapon. I like the thought of a weapons skill being based on the relationship a player has with it. You've used the weapon a lot over time so you know how to get the most out of it. If you sell it to someone else they've gotta put in the time as well. Speaking of the trees, is there a general consensus as to the presence of the Titan symbol on the upgrade symbol of Thunderlord (not always up to date on most theories speculations)? Is it just assumed that some weapons have special perks when used "correctly"? The symbol in the bottom is likely a focus if so which would possibly grant more bonuses. Edit: Remembered that I wanted to address a point of future exotics. It has been mentioned that "things might not drop any more" at various times throughout the life of the game. This implies an evolving sandbox. One thing I'm curious about is the addition of future exotic abilities such as invisibility. You mention adding blueprints to the game to serve as easy explanations for new exotic arrivals. But my question is this: Do you expect new exotics to primarily provide new abilities or rehash old ones? From my experiences I would say guns can be added to the sandbox with various configuration files that don't require patches to the game so long as they use the existing codebase. That's not so hard to imagine if you consider all guns share some simple properties such as throwing bullets at various speeds with a few variations here and there. But with exotics it seems like to add new abilities to the mix requires patches/updates to support them. For example let's say next year they want to add a new gun that for whatever reason allows a player to briefly use two sights (I couldn't think of something else that obviously breaks existing game code). The art and configuration for the gun can be grabbed without updating the game but they'll have to add the new code to support that gun through an update. An update by itself isn't a huge deal but just interested to see how often they add brand new abilities through future exotics as opposed to remixing existing features.

Aside from the exotic ascension I definitely think you're on to something. If you look at the drawing boards only the exotic weapons have their designation in front of the weapon name. Example: Closing time: exotic sniper rifle Duke mk. 44: hand cannon See how the duke doesn't have a designation before it? No basic, common or superior. So your ascension, atleast in the sub exotic stage seems likely.

Brilliant thread, Hylebos. It's a great idea, but I wouldn't feel bad if it wasn't it (no offense, by that I just mean I'm fine with either this or weapons sticking in their 'ranks'). The only issue I can think of with this is: what if I like more than one weapon a lot? It's not a major issue, it would just mean that either you have to pick which you'll make and exotic or make both exotics and have them in different loadouts (but that would defeat the purpose).

[quote][b]6) Conclusion[/b][/quote]As this thread draws to a close, I'd just like to say that I speculate not because I want to tell Bungie what to do or because I'm worried that they're going to get things wrong. I have a lot of respect for their team, and I'm willing to give Bungie the benefit of the doubt until they otherwise give me reason for concern. I'm just very passionate about game design, and I feel that it's very important to develop predictions about what will come next based off of what we know. I could very easily be wrong about anything I've speculated about in this thread, a simple false assumption made near the beginning could change the way things play out dramatically. I speculate in spite of that because if I'm right, I'm right, and that's well and good, but if I'm wrong, that's a chance for my design sense to grow as I compare what was predicted to what was implemented. It's a win-win situation, and I really do enjoy articulating and sharing my perspective with the community. I imagine that this won't be my last thread about Destiny's sandbox, it's such a core part of defining who we are as heroes is this mysterious and exciting universe, and it's also very relevant to everything built on top of it. For my next topic I've been playing around with the idea of examining potential exotic weapon designs of my own creation, I'd like to explore what makes an exotic abillity strong or problematic. Though, this plan could easily change depending on what Bungie reveals between now and then, I'd love to sink my teeth into Focuses and all of their associated attributes, though I feel that we need a little more information before I feel truly inspired to write a wall about it. As always, I'd love to listen to your perspective on what you thought about my thread and topic. I'd be happy to try and clear up any questions or concerns you might have, and even if you outright disagree with me, sharing your thoughts could potentially help both of us develop a stronger understanding of this topic. Thank you for making it to the end of my thread, and until next time, keep the fires of speculation burning! ~Hylebos [b]If you would like to comment, please reply to the Original Post. [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605619]Please click on this Hyperlink to return to the top.[/url][/b] [quote][b]Table of Contents 1) [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605619]Introduction / Original Post[/url] 2) [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605658&path=1]The Sub-Exotic Tiers and Standard Ascension[/url] 3) [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605637&path=1]The Exotic Tier and the First Implementation[/url] 4) [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605630&path=1]The Second Implementation[/url] 5) [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605626&path=1]The Third Implementation[/url] 6) >> Conclusion <<[/b][/quote][quote][b]Related Threads: 1) [url=http://www.bungie.net/7_Destiny39s-Design-Exotic-Restrictions/en/Forum/Post?id=63230808]Destiny's Design: Exotic Restrictions[/url] 2) [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=64293430]Destiny's Design: Exotic Exclusivity[/url][/b][/quote]

[quote][b]2) The Sub-Exotic Tiers and Standard Ascension[/b][/quote]I first started thinking about this topic back in December when I read about Destiny's equipment tiers in the latest issue of GameInformer:[quote]"Gear is loosely gathered into four tiers: basic (white), common (green), superior (purple), and the coveted exotic items (gold). Characters can only wield one exotic weapon and one exotic armor piece, but you can carry as many as you like, and switch between them at your leisure."[/quote]Miller, Matt. "Destiny." Game Informer Jan. 2014: 59. Print. Initially, I interpreted the paragraph to mean that all weapons and armor belonged to strict tiers with no means to advance them, but the more I thought about it, the less that perspective made sense. In Destiny, Bungie wants each player to develop a relationship with the equipment they use, but how could I develop a relationship with something like a basic hand cannon if I knew that it's going to become obsolete the moment I acquire a common, superior, or exotic version of that weapon? I think it makes much more sense to think of the sub-exotic equipment tiers as less about the final potential of a piece of equipment and more of a descriptor of its current power level. In my mind, all sub-exotic equipment in Destiny would be found by default at basic tier, allowing for maximum user-input into the customization process. To reach higher tiers, a player would need to ascend their equipment, a process that could work a number of ways depending on how formal Bungie wants to make the barrier between each tier and how much investment a piece of equipment requires to qualify for the ascension process. An example implementation of this feature would allow players to ascend any piece of equipment that has been fully upgraded. The player would need to bring the piece of equipment to one of The Last City's weapon-smiths or armor-smiths and provide them with money and a special item that gets consumed in ascension. The item required would depend on what you're ascending and what tier you're ascending it to, think of something like a "Common Shotgun Core" or a "Superior Armor Kit". Functionally, it would be cool if ascending a tier acted as a soft reset for that piece of equipment. The newly ascended armor or weapon would be initially weaker than it was when it was fully upgraded in the previous tier, but as a tradeoff, it would have better stat scaling and would offer better customization choices than before. This would discourage players from mindlessly ascending their gear, and makes the choice to take a piece of equipment to the next level more powerful. It also gives players a natural opportunity to redo some earlier decisions they've made with regards to upgrades without compromising the investment of that item. This is just a very rough and imperfect implementation and many of its details are certainly up for debate, but I hope it gives the reader a basic idea of how equipment ascension might work in Destiny. ...So how do Exotics fit into all of this? [b]Destiny Speculation: Exotic Ascension continues on the next post. [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605637&path=1]Please click this Hyperlink to continue reading.[/url][/b][spoiler][b]Table of Contents 1) [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605619]Introduction / Original Post[/url] 2) >> The Sub-Exotic Tiers and Standard Ascension << 3) [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605637&path=1]The Exotic Tier and the First Implementation[/url] 4) [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605630&path=1]The Second Implementation[/url] 5) [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605626&path=1]The Third Implementation[/url] 6) [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63605621&path=1]Conclusion[/url][/b][/spoiler]

I like the idea of being able to ascend weapon tiers however I think it would be better if you couldn't upgrade to exotic and just stop at superior. It would make the exotics much more unique, Bungie wouldn't have to worry about having to balance abilities and such, and because you can only carry one exotic at a time most people probably wouldn't want to upgrade all of their gear to exotic anyways.

I had time to open this thread, go to the bathroom, make dinner, and I STILL wasn't finished reading this thread that's how long it was. Wait...

Saved to read via computer. I like the idea already, though. The idea of investing into your actual weapons is very appealing. I just hate reading long bodies on a tiny screen.

Glad to see some people actually come in with fresh ideas discussed in length. I like the third scenario you drafted up personally but I could see how some people won't want to go on "errand runs" but IMO destiny is going to be about exploring as much as it is about blowing your enemies to bits. I also think that the "ascension" so to speak of a superior to an exotic or pseudo exotic is a dangerous thing: Pros: You become familiar with your weapon it is you and represents you. Creates individuality. Cons: It suffers a bit to the lust to find actual exotics. If anything can be brought up to that level how "special" are these things? That being said I wish bungie would give us a few more scraps. I think they secretly love us to salivate.

Did you draw any inspiration for your Third Implementation from the Monster Hunter Series or any other similar games? If you haven't played it ( And I highly recommend you do ) it uses the exact same concept you stated in your Third Implementation of Weapon Progression where you acquire a "Starter" weapon and as you progress through the story and kill larger and smarter monsters you carve off pieces of them which you then use to upgrade your weapon and armor. I just thought it was uncanny how close your theory lined up with another that was in a fairly popular franchise albeit not so much in America. I don't mean to insinuate that you stole your concept, just that I find it amazing when individuals such as yourself can have an idea pop up like that. I'm also not as knowledgeable as you are when it comes to Game Design, but it's something I am interested in doing as a career so I relish any chance I can get to see your thought process. I would also like to add that I think your Third Implementation is a pretty cool idea. Is it meant to be a one time thing? If i have my superior Pulse rifle and I upgrade it to whatever option of Exotic I thought was the coolest, is my weapon now done with it's progression? To go on a bit of a Tangent I never realized how similar Destiny's concept is to that of Monster Hunter as a whole. The feeling they are describing of seeing a Guardian who has not only been defending the city, but going out to reclaim what was once ours and see him wearing armor that is not only beautiful, but effective is very comparable to seeing a Hunter in Monster Hunter for the first time. You know where that Hunter has been and what he had to do to get that set. You know that he may have had to kill one of the Elder Dragon over 10 times to get the one rare drop he needed to complete his Helm or Chest Plate, but that it was worth it as he sits in the Guild hall in his immaculate set. Now I'm so happy that you made this thread because it made me realize that Destiny can be the next incarnation of Monster Hunter that I never knew I wanted, but would more than kill to play.