tl;dr and notable points at the bottom.[quote]In two fresh statements, Danish doctors express deep concern over ritual circumcision of boys. The Danish Society of Family Physicians, whose 3,000 members include two thirds of all general practitioners in Denmark, announced in December that circumcision of underage boys with no proper medical indication is nothing short of mutilation. In a separate statement, the overarching Danish Medical Association recommended earlier this week that non-therapeutic male circumcision should wait until the boy or young man is old enough to provide informed consent. An editorial in Jyllands-Posten, the second largest national newspaper in Denmark, urged the Danish government yesterday to ban ritual circumcision of underage boys, and a result poll among readers of BT, another large national newspaper, showed that 87 percent of well over 26,000 votes were in favour of such a ban.
Not surprisingly, Israel has a quite different view on this matter. In December 2013, an Israeli delegation of Knesset politicians travelled to Paris in an attempt to overturn a visionary, human rights-based resolution that was passed by a comfortable majority of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) on 1 October 2013. The PACE resolution 1952 recommends that member states start moving towards abolishing all kinds of physical assaults on children, including non-therapeutic circumcision of boys and girls. The Council of Europe is the continent’s leading human rights organization with a current total of 47 member states, each of which has signed the European Convention of Human Rights. Israel is neither a member, nor has it signed the European Convention of Human Rights but, since 1957, Israel has held observer status in the Council of Europe.
In the Israeli media, readers have repeatedly been told that the widely-held European stance against ritual circumcision is rooted partly in anti-Semitism, and partly in fear of an expanding Muslim population in Europe. Such anti-religious rhetoric is unjustified. The vast majority of Europe’s opponents of ritual circumcision are religiously tolerant, but consider cutting off an important part of a non-consenting, healthy child’s genitals to be contrary to modern ethics. This view was clearly expressed in September 2013 in a common statement of the ombudsmen and spokespersons for children in Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Greenland and Denmark. To most Europeans circumcision is an ethically problematic ritual that is intrinsically harmful to children: every child has the right to protection of his or her bodily integrity and the right to explore and enjoy his or her undiminished sexual capacity later in life.
Infant circumcision’s negative long-term impact on human sexuality has been recognized by Jewish authorities for ages. Scholars like Philo of Alexandria (appr. 20 BC - 50 AD) and Moses Maimonides (1135-1204) knew well that reduced penile sensitivity was not an unfortunate side effect of the brit milah; rather it was part of the point: to diminish the animalistic sexuality of men. It takes more than a strongly media-promoted literature review by the world’s leading circumcision advocate, Brian Morris of Sydney University, to eradicate the bulk of scientific evidence and several thousands of years of knowledge. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive part of a boy’s penis and thereby diminishes his sexual sensitivity for the rest of his life. In October 2013, the Nordic Association of Clinical Sexologists stated that the bodily injury associated with circumcision is a violation of the boy’s sexual autonomy.
The head of the Israeli circumcision delegation, Reuven Rivlin (Likud Beytenu), has repeatedly referred to a series of highly questionable benefits from circumcision. His source of information is a 2012 policy paper on the topic by the American Academy of Pediatrics. However, Rivlin has unfailingly forgotten to inform readers that this policy paper has been seriously criticized for cultural bias by pediatric societies, general medical associations and 38 medical professors, doctors and researchers from 17 countries across Europe and Canada. Unlike their US colleagues, European doctors do not accept the postulated health benefits of circumcision as being well-documented, including the claimed reduction in risks of urinary tract infections, sexually transmitted infections, HIV/AIDS and penile cancer. And, importantly, even if the claims were valid, they would still not constitute a compelling argument for circumcising boys before an age at which they can make the decision themselves. Moreover, while parents are generally told that circumcision is a safe and painless procedure, the truth is that no available local anesthetic is able to provide pain relief, but only some level of pain reduction, and even the most efficient method has a failure rate of six to eight percent. Additionally, a non-trivial proportion of boys – five percent according to a recent Danish study - will experience significant procedural or post-operative complications, even when the operation is carried out by experienced pediatric surgeons in a university hospital. In rare instances, complications can be fatal. This little-heard of, but well-known fact is the humane Talmudic reason for permitting Jewish parents to forgo circumcision of their son if two older brothers died as a result of the procedure.
On January 27, a motion for a new resolution, conceived by the Knesset’s circumcision delegation to marginalize the recently passed PACE resolution, will be discussed in the Bureau of the Council of Europe. If successful, it will lead to a new debate and a new vote in the Parliamentary Assembly during the spring of 2014. Hopefully, the Bureau of the Council of Europe will have the resolve to stand up for children’s rights, despite this pressure.
Although religious proponents of circumcision often claim otherwise, the growing European opposition to ritual circumcision of boys is by no means a movement against Judaism, Islam or religiosity in general. It reflects instead an increasing awareness that children are humans, and that all humans have inalienable rights from day one, a view that is supported by a growing number of Jews in Israel, the US and elsewhere around the world. As pointed out in a recent article by Jewish scientist and blogger Rebecca Steinfeld, under Jewish law a boy with a Jewish mother is a Jew, whether he is circumcised or not: circumcision does not confer Jewish status.
Today’s and tomorrow’s children should be protected against irreversible and medically unnecessary alterations of their bodies. When they reach the age of majority (typically 18 years), they can freely choose to undergo any ritual surgery they might want. Hopefully, 2014 will be the turning year when politicians across Europe will agree with their doctors, ombudsmen for children, sexologists, and human rights advocates that religious arguments must never trump the protection of children’s basic human rights. To cut off functional, healthy parts of other people’s bodies without their explicit and well-informed consent can never be anybody’s right – religious or otherwise.
[i]The author is a doctor and independent researcher at Statens Serum Institut in Copenhagen, Denmark, and an adjunct professor of sexual health epidemiology at the Center for Sexology Research at Aalborg University. Views expressed in this article are those of the author, not of the author’s institutions or The Copenhagen Post.[/i][/quote][url]http://cphpost.dk/news/circumcision-divide-between-denmark-and-israel.8440.html[/url]
tl;dr
- Danish doctors say non-medical circumcision is mutilation, should be banned until the boy is able to provide informed consent.
- A poll with 26,000+ votes showed 87% supported the ban.
- Israeli media tells the public the European stance against circumcision is rooted in anti-Semitism, even though it's not.
- Most Europeans believe circumcision is intrinsically harmful.
- Sexologists have stated the injury associated with circumcision is a violation of sexual autonomy.
- Head of the Israeli circumcision delegation constantly refers to the so-called benefits of circumcision, citing a 2012 policy released by the American Academy of Pediatrics, which has been seriously criticised for cultural bias by pediatric societies, general medical associations, 38 medical professors, and doctors and researchers from 17 countries across Europe and Canada.
- European doctors do not accept the postulated health benefits (reduction in UTIs, STIs, HIV/AIDS, and penile cancer) of the American Academy of Pediatrics as being well-documented.
- Even if the health benefits were true, it is not a compelling argument for circumcision before an age where the child cannot make the decision themselves.
- Parents are told it is a safe and painless procedure, but the truth is local anesthetic is only able to provide some level of pain reduction, which fails 6-8% of the time.
- 5% will suffer significant procedural or post-op complications, even when performed by experienced surgeons in a university hospital, some fatal.
- Jewish parents can forgo future circumcisions if two previous sons die as a result of it.
- Opposition to circumcision by Jews is growing in Israel and the US.
- "human rights advocates that religious arguments must never trump the protection of children’s basic human rights"
- "To cut off functional, healthy parts of other people’s bodies without their explicit and well-informed consent can never be anybody’s right – religious or otherwise."
tl;dr tl;dr circumcision is mutilation, a violation of human rights, and there are no medically accepted benefits.
[url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63539026&path=1]Final thoughts[/url].
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Since it looks like this topics has just about run its course, I want to leave a few final thoughts and compile this topic into a single post. [url=http://www.darwinharmless.com/thoughts_and_comments/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/flow-chart-circumcision2.jpg]tl;dr with pretty pictures for the two year-olds among us[/url]. 1. The absolutely incredible thing I've learned from this topic is the amount of complete and utter ignorance and apathy toward this. It's sad. 2. Circumcision causes [b]significant physical and psychological pain[/b].[quote][url=http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/spectator.htm]The[/url] increasing doubts about Jewish circumcision are based on the understanding that it causes harm. Anatomical, neurochemical, physiological, and behavioral studies confirm what mothers already know: infants feel pain. Drs. Anand and Hickey, in a comprehensive review of recent medical literature on newborn pain, conclude that newborn responses to pain are "similar to but greater than those in adult subjects."11 This study is accepted by virtually all medical authorities and is often cited in the literature whenever there is a discussion of infant pain. As a surgical procedure, circumcision has been described as "among the most painful performed in neonatal medicine."12 Studies of infant responses show that the pain of circumcision is not like that of a mere pin prick. It is severe and overwhelming.[/quote] 3. The baby [b]does[/b] remember it.[quote][url=http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/spectator.htm]Circumcision[/url] has other harmful effects. Anand and Hickey write that the persistence of specific behavioral changes after circumcision in neonates implies the presence of memory. In the short term, these behavioral changes may disrupt the adaptation of newborn infants to their postnatal environment, the development of parent-infant bonding, and feeding schedules.18 Psychiatrist Rima Laibow agrees that circumcision significantly impairs mother-infant bonding.19 Other researchers conclude that circumcision has "behavioral and psychological consequences."20 The American Academy of Pediatrics Task Force on Circumcision notes increased irritability, varying sleep patterns, and changes in infant-maternal interaction after circumcision.21 Canadian investigators report that during vaccinations at age four to six months, circumcised boys had increased behavioral pain response and cried for significantly longer periods than did uncircumcised boys, a possible indication of post-traumatic stress disorder.22 Other long-term effects have not been studied.[/quote] 4. The supposed reduction in risks of UTIs, STIs, HIV/AIDS, cancer, etc... are heavily disputed. The source of these claims is a 2012 [url=http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/08/22/peds.2012-1989]policy statement[/url] from the American Association of Pediatrics which has been [url=http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2013/03/12/peds.2012-2896.abstract]criticised by numerous professionals and health care organisations for being culturally bias[/url]. 5. "Circumcision removes the risk of phimosis". First of all, in times where it is medically necessary to have one performed, the procedure is justified. Just as amputating a heavily infected limb would also be justified. Secondly, circumcision to prevent phimosis is like amputating your fingers, toes, etc... to prevent frostbite, or cutting out your brain to reduce the risk of dementia. 6. "I've seen one been done and the baby didn't cry".[quote][url=http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/spectator.htm]The [/url]relationship between infant pain and vocal response needs explanation. The cry may be reduced by the effect of anesthetics given to the mother during labor.13 These anesthetics enter the infant's body and, according to pediatrician T. Berry Brazelton, it can take over a week to leave.14 Other factors can also account for minimal vocal response. Justin Call, infant psychologist and professor-in-chief of child and adolescent psychology at the University of California, reports that "sometimes babies who are being circumcised . . . . lapse into a semi-coma."15 Tonya Brooks, president of the International Association for Childbirth at Home and a midwife, observes, "In four of the nine circumcisions that I have seen, the baby didn't cry. He just seemed to be suddenly in a state of shock!"16 Studies demonstrate that even though an infant may not cry during circumcision, the stress hormone level in the blood still increases dramatically, and medical researchers consider this change to be the most reliable indicator of pain response.17 Therefore, lack of crying does not mean that the infant feels no pain. It could mean that he is withdrawing from unbearable pain.[/quote] 7. [url=http://sciencenordic.com/male-circumcision-leads-bad-sex-life]Male circumcision negatively affects the sex lives of a male and his female partner.[/url] 8. "It's the parents' choice." I want to remove the skin from the little finger of my newborn baby girl. That's my choice as a parent, according to this bizarre idea. If you disagree, would you also support my choice to have my daughter's earlobes cut off? How about the entire ear? Am I still justified in it being my choice as a parent? No? How about amputation of her legs? Removal of her eyeballs? What about a straight-out honour killing just because it's [i]my choice[/i]? Draw the line in the sand between what's acceptable and what's not, and justify it. 9. "Not allowing me to circumcise my child is a violation of my religious freedom". See point 7 above. Freedom of religion can only go so far. By the way, who's freedom are we talking about here? Yours, or your child who just been born, doesn't even know what religion is, and might not even want to be part of your religion? 10. "An uncircumcised penis looks ugly." You're free to hold that opinion. If you want to decide that you were born partially ugly and want to have a cosmetic procedure to reshape it, go right ahead. Do note I mentioned it being [i]your decision[/i]. 11. "Why are you so obsessed with dicks?" I'm not the one advocating genital cutting like you probably are. People should leave things alone that don't belong to them. Did you ever think about that? 12. Given everything you've learned above, if you are anti-"female circumcision" you should be equally outraged at male genital cutting. It's mutilation for both sexes, any way you cut it. [i]n[/i]. If you've made it this far and are still pro-genital cutting, go to YouTube, search for a video named "What the Heck is a Circumcision? - Part ll", and skip to 7:30, then post how much you love the idea of slicing up babies (although if you do, well... let's just say I hope you never have children of your own, for their sake).
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Edited by VIC: 2/21/2016 7:20:10 PM[i] [/i]
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this mod is constantly trying to make people who are circiumsized feel worse about them self probably just because he feels insecure about his own dick
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[b]400 replies?[/b] Is this really that important to people?
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Benefits of banning infant circumcision: - More individual rights. - Babies are not tortured. Negatives of banning infant circumcision: - Men will have to spend an extra 5 seconds showerign. Which one do you want? An extra 5 seconds of shower, or torturing of babies?
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Well this is just common sense. It doesn't reduce chances of STIs or aids. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Just clean your -blam!-ing dick.
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good, mutilating your child for your stupid beliefs should be banned.
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weren't religous discussions against the rules ?
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Wow... So it's inhumane to cut off an unnecessary part of their body when they're young because anesthesia doesn't work, but it's ok when they're grown up and there's more to cut off, and the person is more likely to remember it. If this is the path we're taking, why not just make it illegal to give birth to a person until they're old enough to give consent? Makes as much sense to me.
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Edited by Magical Robot: 1/28/2014 7:26:49 AM[quote]The head of the Israeli circumcision delegation[/quote]...........(4th paragraph) Why? Just why? It's so typical, it's a pun, and it's just so messed up.
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Damn that must suck to live in a country with no religious freedom.
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These arguments are stupid and biased. I can just get any article saying how circumcision has no benefits and is a mutilation and should be illegal, written by an uncircumcised man. I can also get an article written by a circumcised man talking about the benefits of circumcision. There's no right or wrong for this topic, everyone believes that what they have is the best.
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Story Time: Me and my 2 friends where talking over our Xboxes one night. Let's refer to them as Friend X and Friend Y. We started talking about circumcision and when we got circumcised. I was circumcised as a baby, Friend X was at 10 or something, and Friend Y said he isn't circumcised. We started giving him shit because we both think uncircumcised penises are ugly and were just being asses. The weekend afterwards we went on a camping trip with Friend Y and his family. We all shared the same tent and when night time came, we were giving him shit again. We heard his mom giggle while hearing us as she was out having a late night cigarette. Come morning, Friend Ys mom told him that he was circumcised. Apparently he thought circumcision was when you cut the head off. This was because of lack of attention-paying in Health class. So many lels and keks were had.
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*crosses legs*
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Edited by Banned Tyger: 1/26/2014 2:47:08 PMI know someone who was circumcised when then were twelve and they said it was the most horrible experience of their life.
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Never understood why people mutilated their baby's dick in the first place
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Edited by Predator5791: 1/30/2014 2:52:09 PM[u]Galatians 5:6 [/u] [i]"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." [/i] The Jews were given this doctrine but rejected it. The truth is that circumcision is not necessary.
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I'm circumcised [spoiler]I swear to god like 40% of the people on here have no idea what it even does. I bet most are circumcised and don't even know it.[/spoiler]
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Do it as a baby, then you won't live with the pain, or remember it, or grow up with an earthworm eating it's own ass for a dick.
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If anything, an uncircumcised penis is absolutely disgusting. Why would anyone want a penis that looks like an earthworm eating its own asshole?
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I'd rather just have a mushroom. The whole thing about getting circumcised as an infant is that you don't remember it. Now grandpas will get to tell their grandkids their circumcision story.
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Banning circumcision is anti-Semitic.
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I love how dazarobbo is getting butthurt over people who don't mind the fact that they're circumcised. And 400 replies? Wow.
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>uncut Europoors mad that they look like turkey basters >can never win a cut v uncut thread >rageban circumcision
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Every girl I asked that was cool enough to talk about it said they would never even touch a turtleneck penis.
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So basically, the point of this thread is to not allow parents to make decisions for their children who aren't old enough to make the decision for them self?