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Destiny

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12/23/2013 1:04:15 AM
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Destiny's Competitive Multiplayer - Kill Times and Why It's Important to You

[i]TL;DR:[/i] Given that Lars has stated kill times are much quicker than in previous Halos, I’m concerned that they are too short and decrease the skill gap of Destiny's Competitive Multiplayer. The trend in the industry has been to make games noob-friendly with less of a learning curve. This makes games incredibly fun for new players who get to win more than they should, whereas it makes games frustrating for skilled players who have to deal with losing more than they should, thus increased sales with decreased replayability. I believe Destiny is going to be able to fill several different roles of player needs, from the casual to the competitive to the short game to the marathon long raid. I just hope that Destiny’s Competitive Multiplayer’s target audience are experienced players and it strikes the perfect balance of kill times allowing for an unprecedented skill gap to thrive. [quote]I sat down with Bungie's Lars Bakken, the multiplayer lead for Halo 3 and one of the creators of Firefight, to dive into details on Destiny's competitive multiplayer. Bakken stresses this in the interview as well, but we want to note that details on Bungie's design are constantly shifting so the specifics mentioned in the interview are not set in stone. ... [b]GameInformer:[/b] Would you say multiplayer matches are faster than Halo games... or how would you compare the speed? [b]Lars Bakken:[/b] Definitely faster. If we're to talk about lethality; it's certainly more lethal than Halo. When you catch a guy with his pants down, you can take him out really quickly. And that's not even including using a heavy weapon or a Super to do that, but generally your primary assault class weapons are going to do a little more damage than what we had in Halo. [b]GI:[/b] What's the reason for that? [b]LB:[/b] Combat resolution is fun, right? Getting into combat and having it end is fun. It's satisfying for both sides. And it's not all the time, you know. Good players are still going be able to get away some of the time, but it's a little harder now.[/quote] These two answers [url=http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2013/12/09/revealing-the-details-of-destinys-competitive-multiplayer.aspx]from the interview with Lars Bakken[/url] regarding Destiny’s Competitive Multiplayer kill times (or lethality) peaked my interest. In my opinion, the impacts kill times (the average length of time for an engagement) have in Competitive Multiplayer FPS are: 1) If kill times are too long, more fights end in a draw, which is slow paced and frustrating, especially for new and casual gamers. Echoing what Lars states, it reduces the number of engagements that actually matter. Halo: Reach’s Armor Lock (temporary player invincibility ability) increased kill times to a point I didn’t find enjoyable, especially with insta-locking (turning it on and off multiple times mid-fight). I typically didn’t engage players with AL without a significant advantage, because of how long it took to take them out. Thus, I had to take even more time to engage in another player. The ability’s cost was eventually increased and AL became more tolerable. 2) If kill times are too short, engagements are over simplified and repetitive. It reduces the opportunities for higher skilled players to set themselves apart (skill gap). It places a greater emphasis on who sees who first, who has less lag, and who holds the power weapons. The Call of Duty series or the Halos’ Team Swat are great examples. I’ve had loads of fun with these games, but the replayability aspect isn’t there for me, especially when there’s any noticeable lag. I’ve always joked that it’s why CoD is on a one year cycle, because gamers can’t stand playing it for any longer! 3) A careful balance of kill times must be struck. Kill times are an attribute of a video game that is rarely promoted, but is one of the most important X factors that helps make an FPS enjoyable years after its release.

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  • This really will be interesting to see how it unfolds, I truly can't wait. I always have preferred multi-player over the campaign in every shooter besides the Halo games (excluding the 343, Halo 4, campaign.) BUT I am also very confident in Bungie that they won't screw this up and turn it into a CoD multi-player. Honestly I'm worried about the guys who will have the Rocket Launcher's as their Special and camp the heavy ammo drops.

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    • Edited by DTO Gaming: 12/23/2013 5:27:00 PM
      Halo Reach, w/o AL maybe a different system for regen, given how warlocks apparently are supportive and heal ppl. Reach was good because, if you got the jump, you would likely win, however if you were over confident you would get smacked, which I find is not the case in many other games... Awareness of classes, potentially gear would be a interesting element and certainly add to skill gap, which I am in favour of, for example you are a warlock, playing a supportive role, you don't have any "heavy ammo" and therefore know you would not likely win a engagement with the high powered hunter. In all halo games the staple was balance and equal opportunity. Adding classes in this manner will certainly be interesting and I for one am eagerly anticipating how Bungie can implement this in a way that is not over complex for new comers to FPS's or unbalanced.

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      • It isn't I will play alone.

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        • low health leads to camping. if you know you'll die the second the other guy sees you, you won't be running out in the open and instead just hide and wait for the unaware.

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        • I'm just hoping that what they end up with is players not being able to run away from every encounter that isn't in their favour. Instead, they have to react to the player and fight back. OR if they are skilled enough, use their focus to get out of a sticky situation.

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        • Edited by Vampire Nox: 12/23/2013 5:45:43 PM
          [quote]TL;DR[/quote]With this at the very beginning, then the length of your OP, I don't think you know what "TL;DR" means... Tl;DR: Your TL;DR was TL;DR.

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          • Competitive Halo players will mean OMG all these weapons are over powered and I hate their perk slots and here's my pedigree before even getting to whatever it is they are going to complain about on a post. COD players holy shit I'm having fun I want to buy this more. Studio give me more of those guys.

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              i agree with you. halo 3 killtimes were good. (screw you bloom)

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            • Edited by Cypher Alpha: 12/23/2013 7:57:59 AM
              After a bit of research, I found out that Halo's kill-times are around [b]1.3[/b] to [b]1.8[/b] seconds. More than one second. CoD's kill-times, on the other hand, are [i]incredibly[/i] fast. You can kill people in the blink of an eye, and as you said, this makes lag have a bigger impact on the game and it becomes a "first come, first serve" situation (whoever sees each other first and has the better connection wins). They're [b]0.1[/b] to [b]0.4[/b] seconds. That's less than half a second. I'm guessing that in order to strike a balance, the weapon kill-times in Destiny are going to have to be around [b]0.7[/b] to [b]1.1[/b] seconds? If you could kill people extremely quickly like in CoD, there would be no use for Super Abilities or different play-styles since it would be faster to just spray-and-pray without thinking.

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              • Edited by GHOSTFACE: 12/23/2013 7:27:37 AM
                I'd rather longer kill times for competitive multiplayer especially with the specials we have involved. I want magic, shields, buffs and all that good stuff to make a difference when you go head to head with someone. It kind of defeats the purpose if you can just take them out easy with the rifle. It will end up like another battlefield or COD. Honestly, I don't even plan on playing competitive multiplayer for that reason. I'm so tired of the matchmaking, run shoot die and spawn games. I'm really looking forward to the immersion aspect of destiny and building my character to be legend. That's what has been missing in console games. I'll be exploring the world, taking down bosses no one has seen yet and getting gear that makes you jealous when I'm running around town.

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                • I am perfectly happy with not having any "omg how is he not dead I ran up behind him and shot him repetitively in the back of the head how did he turn around and kill me?" Those moments are shit and not about skill - they are about imbalances that come from level / upgrade inequality.

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                  • It's certainly a delicate balance. On one hand you don't want too much Halo (shielding and almost totally skill-based), which will attract competitive gamers, but at the same time you don't want COD (almost instakill with little skill) which will attract flocks of gamers but decrease skill quality to play. I'm sure Bungie has taken this into consideration, but there does need to be social and competitive playlists.

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                    • I thought Crysis 3 Killtimes were pretty good

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                      • I would take faster kill times any day.

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                        • good post

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                        • I have gamed for quite awhile in my life; however, I naturally have been drawn to PC gaming more than console. I am very biased when I respond to this ultimately because I have only enjoyed one console game series ever. That being said...Halo is what I truly love playing. I have played Halo since Halo CE and still play Halo 4. I even competed in MLG for quite awhile. Halo is enjoyable for me because of the skill gap of player vs player and team vs individual players. The aspect of longer kill times is what made me love the game. I have disliked each Call of Duty game released because first person to see and shoot aspect. I understand that longer kill times can equal constant resets in battle; however, I feel the world can hinder such "resets" through map creation or number of players in a specific zone, etc. I am definitely for longer kill times because of the creativity of outsmarting other players (whether through using your skill or map knowledge, etc.) I have done my fair share of Big Team Battles and I will rack up 25+ kills in a game to 60 or 100 easy. These gets VERY old VERY fast to me. I don't enjoy cruising through players that I don't have to think to play. I will literally hold forward on my movement stick the entire game. Balance is going to be hard aspect of this game. I hope BUNGIE is ready for it. I'm rooting for them at least.

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                        • So yeah. About the kill times, it makes perfect sense that they're faster than Halo as Guardians have ready access to sprint and double jumps regardless of what class they are, so without faster kill times, players would be able to get away from sour fights way too easily. I'm certain that Bungie is trying to strike a nice balance, and if they don't, I'm sure we'll let them know :)

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                          • what I'm afraid of is the game ending up being a space magic feast, where everyone is just using supers to 1 hit kill everyone they see

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                            • Dude your TL;DR was to long.

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