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Edited by Bolt: 11/30/2013 8:27:20 PM
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Are human beings "equal?"

Rules: Whether yes or no, state the metric you're using, and why that metric is valid/justified/important. This is my thinking so far (warning: long): [spoiler] "Equality" does not mean "everyone is satisfied and accepted by one an another." Equality has a very rigid mathematical definition, one that is extremely difficult to satisfy when viewing the natural world, depending on how you view it. For example, one could argue that equality is the norm, as there are trillions upon trillions upon trillions... ...upon trillions of identical atoms/isotopes in this universe. That said, looking at it another way, the individual kinetic energy of those atoms is going to be just so slightly variable between each, to the point that it seems any measure of "equality" is a useful estimate, and nothing more. And if position/time is taken into account, how would we categorize two different objects if they occupied the same space at the same energy at the same time? Equality may be intuitive in mathematics and our thinking, but it doesn't seem that the world we live in shares this concept. When we've defined humans as "equal" before, we've usually had to use a supernatural agent to justify this. The Declaration of Independence states that all men are created equal by a creator. While the metric by which this equality is measured isn't specified, it can be inferred that the fact that the creator made them is meant to be taken as proof. Likewise, modern "social justice" movements in the west cite human rights and human dignity. Human rights and human dignity don't exist outside our minds; the harshness of this planet and our surrounding solar system should be proof enough of that. A prehistoric man mortally wounded by a bear couldn't save himself by ranting about dignity to the heavens, much as a soldier in a fox hole isn't going to save himself by throwing copies of the Geneva Convention at the enemy. We made up those concepts because they facilitate cooperation, but their basis isn't logical, let alone objective. So when we look at modern humans, we see a huge disparity in appearance, capabilities, productiveness, etc. How in the world could anyone argue that they're equal? Now some use this to justify concepts such as Eugenics. Clearly if no one is equal to begin with, then there is nothing morally wrong with only selecting the best traits, right? Well unfortunately for those promoting this mindset, there is still an element of magical thinking (analogous to that used to justify human rights) in their belief, namely that they can determine what is "best." That can't be done without clairvoyance. Take for example the genetic affliction known as sickle cell anemia. By most standards, this would be considered a disadvantage. There are a host of health complications with it, including a significantly reduced average life-time compared to similar individuals without it. How in the world did something like this get selected? Turns out that the sickle cell mutation actually inhibits the spread of malaria. In the regions where this is common, this mutation was selected because those without it tended to die of malaria at rates high enough to offset the apparent disadvantages brought by sickle-cell. To put it simply, the undoing of eugenics is genetics (and evolution) itself; we can't know what's going to be best tomorrow. In a world increasingly filled with antibiotic resistant "super-bugs," this concept may enter into the public's consciousness sooner rather than later. What I'm left to conclude from this is that human beings are not equal by any logical metric, but that's not inherently a bad thing. But should humans be viewed as unequal by their governments/societies? Well, the first thing to realize is that they already are seen as unequal in virtually everything you'd call a civilization, and again this isn't inherently a bad thing. You don't want a fry-cook working on nuclear bombs "just because he's human" for instance. I think most people would agree that the specialization people are able to pursue thanks to society is one of the reasons we've developed so much. You're not going to be designing super computers if the entire citizenry just works in the field all day. I think I'm going to wrap this up and just get to the question of the day: Does this justify the privileges that come with some positions? Well, I could take the easy way out and argue that any "justifications" either way are just as subjective as human rights, and in fact I've pretty much spent the rest of this ramble building the case for that, but I'll put in a tiny bit more effort. The real question being asked is: Should our institutions reflect humanity? Which is a silly thing to ask, because what else would they reflect? I'm kind of stuck here at the moment, because no matter how I go about it, any answer to these last two questions becomes subjective. Our governments and societies "should" be what we choose, but they already are. If you go along with it, even begrudgingly, you've accepted that it's better for you to do so than any other alternative. Every now and then our societies diverge too far from what the majority of people want, and we have revolution. I can't make a logical argument in this area, but I feel like I've shown that neither can the "social justice" folks. [/spoiler]

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  • Yes, but some are more equal than others

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    • Here is my opinion [spoiler][/spoiler]

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    • Yes, but I'm more equal.

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    • Yes We are all equally worthless

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      • Edited by cxkxr: 12/1/2013 8:17:59 PM
        "President Kennedy once said, "we will make americans more equal." Are people more equal? Is there any mention in the Bible, or any other holy scripture or any religion, there is not a single word about equality. Just the opposite. By your deeds will we judge you, what you do is important, the merit of your personality. You cannot legislate it if you want to be equal. You [i]have to[/i] be equal. You have to deserve it. And yet we build our society on the notion that people are all equal. That is false, it's a lie. Some people are tall and stupid, others are short, bald, and clever. If we make them equal by force; if we put the principle of equality in the basis of our social political structure, it's the same thing as building a house on sand. Sooner or later, it will collapse and that's exactly what happens. So we as Soviet propaganda makers, are trying to push you in the direction which you go yourselves, "equality! equality! yes, people are equal.". 'Land of equal opportunity', is it true or not? Think about it. Equal opportunity, should there be equal opportunity? For me, and for a lazy bastard who comes here from another country and [i]immediately[/i] registers as a welfare recipient? Can anyone tell me why we should have equal opportunity? Why? Woman in front row: "Equal opportunity to excel" Equal opportunity in equal circumstances yes, but we know people are different. To excel yes, provided we reach the same level of excellency, perfection, which is in a hypothetical distant future, yes may be. But we know perfectly well, that even with the best intentions, people [i]cannot[/i] be equal. Why should we have equality, say, in the legal system? Myself, who I'm considering a law abiding citizen, and a person who comes here to rob and shoot, say, the US administration under carter imported thousands of Cuban criminals, who were known criminals. Yet they were accepted. You think it's fair if myself, and my wife from the Philippines who worked like a, excuse me, a horse as a nurse in a hospital, should have the same rights as a criminal from Cuba? Why? Yet we repeat as parrots, "equality, equality". And the Soviet propaganda system helps us to believe absolute equality is something desirable. Democracy, as it was established by the fathers of this country and system, is not equality. It's a system where [i]different people[/i], [i]unequal people[/i], have a chance to survive and help each other in constant competition and perfection. Not in equality, which is superimposed from a GodFather in Washington D.C.. By the way, absolute equality, exists in the Soviet system. Everyone is equal in dirt, except some people are more equal than others." - Former KGB agent Yuri Besmenov (1983) "The worst form of oppression is forcing unequal people to be equal." - Aristotle.

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      • No.

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      • Execute order ..666

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      • > Insert mandatory Animal Farm quote here <

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        • Your spoiler made the Bungie app crash... :(

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          • Not at all. Those who contribute to the progress and development of society (scientists, pharmacologists, artists, writers, composers mathematicians, police officers (potentially) etc.) are mathematically superior to those who contribute to the progress of excessively themselves (businessmen, politicians, criminals etc.) and to those who simply "maintain" the society or do the "necessary" work (bricklayers, clerks, labourers etc). Otherwise, everybody should be absolutely and fundamentally equal under the eyes of a Civil Law.

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            • No because some people don't have legs

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            • If we were equals, why is OP figgit?

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              • To each other? Not even slightly In virtually, if not all, fields someone will have an advantage over another. You could even look at something like the make-up of the people living in my house to see it given the worth each person adds or detracts from the social group.

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              • Only in a court of law.

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              • I can't say that I can think of anything in which every human is equal. I want to say yes to equality via rights however we don't live in a utopia where everyone's rights are respected. We might want to be equal in that sense, however we haven't acquired it. Even after reading some of the 'Yes' in this thread, I can't say I agree with them. Hm... well, no. I guess I could say we're equal in the sense that our end results will be the same.

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              • Only if they're upper-middle class, white, Christian, straight, and American!

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                • •Yes

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                • Equal? Yes The same? No

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                • Edited by MartinOfRedwall: 12/1/2013 1:34:34 AM
                  We may not be equally bestowed with biological or material advantages, but we are equal in our human tendencies. Whether you're a rich, white, business man or an impoverished, tribal woman, your goal at the end of the day still is to make sure you and your kin are fed. At the end of all descriptions of humans the word man appears, and it is there that we are equal. If you're dropped onto an island and were told exactly one other person is living there too, odds are that you're not going to care what kind of a person there as long as the two of you can thrive.

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                • No. - Der

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                • Edited by Turquoise Jesus: 12/1/2013 1:18:09 AM
                  Usain Bolt vs Stephen Hawking vs autistic (the dumb autistic) criminal. Obviously are not equal socially, physically, or intellectually. /thread

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                • Some of Us are garbage, filth, worthless, etc. I'm so ready for a purge.

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                • personally I don't, to me: the average Islander / Black guy is at least twice as buff or ripped than the average white guy. the average indian guy is usually around 30% more skinny than the average white guy.

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                • You tell me.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp__trLYmbw

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                • I opened up that spoiler and didn't see the warning and my phone interface exploded then imploded

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                • Spectacular topic. About time we had something decent to discuss instead of mindlessly spamming memes or actually talking about talking about shitposting. Well done OP. OT: I pretty much mirror your sentiments. I can't think of a decent objective metric by which to measure complex equality. Well, complex as it pertains to us humans. I always look for simple explanations, but inherently assume (without any concrete reason) that everything is more complex than I think it is. So when I have thought about justifying things like social equality, I assume the notions underlying ontological nuances making up bigger, more complex notions like social equality are pretty complex themselves. Its a variety of magical thinking...but I don't know how to break out of the foundational assumption that I simply don't understand how to quantify social equality. Still, for the time being, an approximation assuming the notion of social equality is better than assuming its wholly unequal seems more productive to living up to the ideal I have set out to comply to. I don't have a concrete reason why I think I should do this, as I said its an approximation, but I will do it anyway. If I ever figure out how to justify equality using concrete terms, great. If not, oh well. I will still continue walking down the obscure path.

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