[quote]people are capable of overcoming conditioning[/quote] Never said they weren't. But you have to admit that there was a time before you overcame it, just like there was for everyone else who did. Would you have wanted whatever helped you climb out of it to give up on you then, to declare you too far gone, and not worth the effort? Tolerance, Jay, is not all sunshine and flowers. At its most complete form, there is little to differentiate it from apathy. It means looking at things you don't want to look at, and trying to understand, to have empathy even when it isn't convenient, or rewarded. No one is going to give you an award for empathizing with angry middle class teenagers, no one's going to think it's worth your time, hell, some of the more extreme "progressives" might think it's counter productive. But it's that mindset, the idea that someone isn't worth your empathy, that causes every "tolerance" movement we've ever seen degenerate into a special interest group. The only viable conclusion I see from all this is that any given version of "tolerance" short of completely apathetic nihilism is an arbitrary distinction of preference. [I]We[/I] draw the lines in the sand. I don't, however, think that this is depressing. It means that the lines don't mean anything, yes, but it also means that we can cross them. If asked personally, I would probably agree with you on nearly every issue with regards to the rights of transsexuals, women, anyone. I think a lot of what happens in this forum is disgusting, and runs very contrary to what I'm comfortable with. I'm not afraid of it though. It's only hopeless once you give up, therefore the only reason to give up is if you're afraid different viewpoints will change or destroy your positions (a very real possibility with open-mindedness), or if you're afraid of being seen with the people you're helping. Ultimately it's up to you right now regardless of your past, but if you practice what you preach, I'd think that you wouldn't leave.