I think we've had two very different experiences with Bungie and its staff, Harlow.

bb, I love you, but he's right. He and I have not only had moderators flat out tell us that they don't want to uphold the CoC because they just don't care, we've also had PMs from DeeJ telling us that they don't want us talking about trans rights/sexism/racism here because boys will be boys and there's no point and all we're doing is creating flamebait and we need to shut up and talk about videogames. (I have copies of said PMs if you really want to see them - I'll FB you.) I defended Bungie for a long time because I thought there were a few staff members here who actually cared about changing the culture, but that's just simply not true. It hasn't ever been true, and I'm beginning to think it never will be true. I mean, look at this thread - Foman went and said that because he doesn't care about people being racist towards him, none of us should care about any kind of discrimination we face. He's a moderator. The webteam have appointed him specifically to make sure the rules are enforced. If he's not going to stand up against discrimination (which is specifically prohibited in the CoC), who is? I'm sorry, I really am, but you're putting your faith in the wrong people here.

So... Bungie, one of the few gaming companies that stood up to SOPA, doesn't have cleavage-bumping nymphos for female characters, and is run by people from [i]Washington[/i] is actually run by a bunch of socially-regressive troglodytes? Gooby pls. Foman gave advice for how he deals with discrimination. I hardly think that's evidence of him trying to endorse discrimination. There are moderators who have actually (unsuccessfully) argued that sex=gender. Go after them if you want to write a conspiracy theory that's actually believable. What [i][b]you[/i][/b] need to understand is that, first of all, you are not the sole voice and arbitrator of trans sexual rights. People deal with it in different ways, and casting judgement on them because they don't support your methods is hypocritcal*10^3. I'd say more but you wouldn't listen to it anyways. Second, you're exaggerating and distorting the nature of those PMs, and you know it. Third, Bungie doesn't need you or me to "defend" them. Fourth, I know if my first point didn't go through this won't, but I'd like you to consider something. You don't know the history of everyone on this forum. You don't know how they were raised, where they come from, or what they've gone through. Given this, [i]assuming[/i] that they should "know better" is an illogical assumption. A lot of these people are the kids with single parent homes, whose closest things to role models growing up were action heroes, and whose perception of women comes from equally base media. If you think they're going to grow up with a "healthy" view of gender politics, you're insane. Hell, you'd probably start a charity for them if a celebrity told you they were "disadvantaged." Sorry; couldn't resist. Regardless, you have to accept then that this, ugly as it is, is their culture. They, in some kind of mythical "absolute" sense, don't need to be "fixed" anymore than transsexuals do. It's possible some could be persuaded to better ends, and it's possible they'll change as they get older, and you could be a positive part of that change. sigh... But instead, like nearly every other "open-minded" activist, you throw your arms in the air at the first sign of political incorrectness and point your shame finger at everything you can. That doesn't turn homosexuals straight, so why the hell would you think that it would change these kid's view of women? It's because you don't actually want to help them. You want your message to reign supreme, and for all facets of knowledge and grace to flow from you. Hell, with the mute feature, you could make this forum look like the politically correct intellectual paradise you want it to. But that wouldn't be enough would it? Because people would still have the audacity to think differently than you on the other side of the wall. The only difference between Sapphire and the flood is that you have control over who gets to talk in Sapphire. If you're too embarrassed of this community to help it, then just go, and stop antagonizing these people for your own amusement. In terms of them accepting your views, you're doing more harm than good. I realized I just wrote a novel for what will probably be a one sentence condescending reply, but I wrote this to put my own thoughts in order anyways.

"Hey, they did this one thing, they're now beyond reproach!" Hmmm, no. I don't know how you can tell me that I'm misrepresenting PMs you haven't seen, but LOL, okay. I don't want people to listen to me. I don't give a shit if they listen to me. I want them to act like decent human beings. And yes, I will keep making noise and "pointing the shame finger" until that's what they're doing. I don't care how many people hate me for it - I think I've made that abundantly clear by now. (And no, sorry - "you don't know how they were raised" isn't an excuse. I was raised by a conservative Muslim man who was planning to marry me off to someone I'd never met the moment I got old enough. Upbringings are only so much of an excuse.) I know I've done more good than harm here, because I get messages from people all the time telling me that I've helped open their eyes and change their minds. I can deal with any amount of hate from any amount of people who think these issues aren't important in exchange for that.

[quote] "Hey, they did this one thing, they're now beyond reproach!" [/quote] Makes just as much sense as "Hey, they didn't do this one thing, now they're evil!" [quote] (And no, sorry - "you don't know how they were raised" isn't an excuse. I was raised by a conservative Muslim man who was planning to marry me off to someone I'd never met the moment I got old enough. Upbringings are only so much of an excuse.) [/quote] Like, really? [i][b]Really?[/b][/i] You're arguing that they aren't shaped by their culture? Please don't make a Nuclear Engineering major school you, the social activist, in anthropology; it'd be unbearable for both of us. [quote] I can deal with any amount of hate from any amount of people who think these issues aren't important in exchange for that. [/quote] And yet... you're moving off-site and declaring Bungie a lost cause.

I'm moving offsite because Sapphire is moving offsite. But I do think it's a good idea. There's not much more we can do here. And you can try to "school me" in anthropology all you want, but people [i]are[/i] capable of overcoming conditioning (just like I and countless other people on this site have done), so no, I don't take that as an excuse.