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This thread is inspired by another: view original post
6/28/2013 8:10:35 PM
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The Developer's Point Of View On Used Games
[quote][i]Lee Perry is a former lead designer at Epic Games and co-founder of Bitmonster Games. Here, he argues that games players should support games development by shunning preowned games.
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You should have the choice to buy a used game, but you should also choose not to.
I’ve been tweeting my thoughts on used games, but as anyone can tell you who has tried to say anything meaningful on Twitter, it’s a recipe for misconstrued points and a format devoid of subtlety. People get immediately heated about the topic of used games, and motive fallacies and heated accusations flare. It’s only slightly less touchy than telling someone the FBI is coming to seize their guns.
Regardless, I’m a developer asking you (not telling you) to hear me out and make an informed decision on the issue. First, as is my habit, a couple of disclaimers to frame my points and focus the discussion.
- This isn’t about Xbox One, or Sony, or anyone specifically – these are points about used games in general, formed long before the new console wars began.
- I’m an outright enemy of ‘always on’. Blizzard botched the launch of Diablo III, and EA catastrophically fumbled the SimCity launch – surely it’s understandable that people would be nervous (at best) at the idea of an entire console being hamstrung with the same limitations.
- I believe triple-A games are too expensive. I don’t care about history adjusted for inflation arguments… the bottom line is $60 is not an impulse buy for anyone, solid income or not. So, I completely get why people want to buy a used copy of a game for a couple bucks cheaper.
- There are few right answers and no good guys and bad guys with this issue. It’s all part of one very large and complicated equation. Used games, piracy, DRM, DLC and microtransactions are not 100 per cent responsible for anything, they’re all just factors in play.
Here’s a pretty unavoidable truth for consumers: when someone buys a used game, that transaction does not support the artists, designers, programmers, musicians, or anyone who created that game. 100 per cent of the money paid for a used game goes to the people they just handed their money to.
When someone purchases a new game the funds are divided equitably between the studio that made the game, the publishers that created and marketed the product, the distributors who put it into your hands, the creator of the console gets a portion, and of course with the store for selling you the new game. The gamer just voted with their dollars to support what a group of people created.
Used game purchasers need to be aware that they’re completely cutting out the developers who created that game, and consider if that’s what they really intended. One comment I encountered during this debate suggested that developers get paid to do the work anyway – to clarify, generally triple-A developers get paid salaries while they are creating a game in the form of a loan from a publisher. It’s an advance on future sales. When those sales numbers aren’t recouped, when income from a game’s sales aren’t reaching the studio that employs people, those studios fail. There’s nothing victimless about it in terms of the individual artist and developer. It matters to them. They’re not free and clear while ‘evil businessmen’ absorb the sales hit – it’s usually the opposite.
Often in these discussions you get the sense that gamers distrust developers. Never is that more apparent than the argument: ‘make better games and we wouldn’t trade them in’. That’s simply not true, and it’s actually shaping the games available to you in a very distinguishable way. Most games have ‘an ending’ – The Last of Us, for example, is a stunning game, but it has an ending, and millions of happy users will sell it back. Constantly, we see articles about wanting games with great characters and stories and interesting narratives, but in nearly any case that means a game that you experience once and ‘complete’.
If the ‘we only trade them because they’re too short’ argument was true, there wouldn’t be a single used copy of Skyrim out there. ‘Make games that don’t end,” is another one; I have sat in many meetings at several companies and witnessed first-hand the destructive power rentals and used games have on triple-A creative decisions. If you don’t gamble a large portion of your budget on multiplayer, your game won’t be considered by nearly any publisher out there.
It’s also a Catch 22 that will sink most projects – you’re spreading your team out to add features that don’t actually fit the project theme, and at the end you’re left with a game that people are comparing unfavourably to projects like Battlefield or Halo, with 100 plus developers working on multiplayer alone. Another method of making games without an end is equally disliked by many consumers: DLC.
For many years I’ve heard the term keeping ‘disk in tray’ – one that predates mobile and freemium games – and it’s a response to used games. Keeping disk in tray is a method of drying up the used game supply and making games that people won’t sell when they’re done. But honestly, everything that comes out of those discussions are the features currently lamented by gamers.
Here’s what developers are up against: every game design, every concept, and every execution can’t fit under the ‘games that don’t end’ umbrella. It’s disappointing as a developer to be forced into that predicament, and it’s a factor in why gamers get a lot of same experiences over and over.
When a person goes into a store and carries a new game up to the counter and a salesperson intercepts to say ‘that’s $5 cheaper if you buy used’, they’re interfering with the process. The expensive and risky ballet that led up to that purchase decision goes unrewarded and becomes rerouted to the guy at the final step of the chain. It’s destructive and parasitic by nearly any measure, and it baffles me to this day when I hear developers are perceived as being selfish in this equation.
Consumers, ask yourself if you’re buying the disc or the game and decide consciously to support the people who created what you’re buying. If you consider yourself a fan of game developers, and if you want to support the people who create what you’re playing, splurge the extra $4 to support the people creating your hobby.
If you honestly don’t care if the developers are rewarded for their work, well, you’re still not the bad guy here. I would say though, you have no ground to stand on when interacting with those developers, complaining about something in their game, or lamenting that they offer DLC. You’re not really their customer and fan – you’re just a fan of the used game store.
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[url]http://www.edge-online.com/features/the-developers-view-on-preowned-why-game-players-must-support-their-hobby/[/url]
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Some good points, but there are only a handful of developers I trust enough to buy a game at full price (Fromsoft, for example). Our money is how we express our dissatisfaction with their products. I'm not going to pay 60$ for a game that looks interesting, but is fundamentally broken or an utter mess, because I don't support that. I wouldn't pay more than 20$ for cod AW, yet I bought lil ol Dragonball XV at full price.
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3 RepliesI stopped reading. He's kind of making the assumption that used games spawn from nowhere and that the developers didn't get any money from the original sale. Also, that used games are only $5 cheaper, when in reality you can get used games for less than half the price of the used game, which means that people with less money can still play the game. Making games isn't just about making money, it's about exposing people to your art. If not everyone can afford to buy it, what's the point?
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13 RepliesEdited by NoelKannagi: 6/30/2013 5:00:49 AMAnother thing people do not realize, is that used games sales contribute to the expensive $60 price tag on new games. If no used games were sold at all, they would make a large profit on their new games, meaning they could sell their games at a cheaper price, like $40, and still make a profit. And guess what kids! If you idiots did not whine and bitch about the Xbox One, then Microsoft could have set up an amazing digital distribution system to implement after the Xbox One, where they completely cut out the manufacturing of the discs and game cases, and cut out stores like GameStop, meaning the prices of games would be even cheaper! And there would likely be sales just like on Steam! But all you kids care about is the present, nobody cares about the future of anything.
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3 RepliesHa. Of course, he said don't buy used games because that means less money for him. [spoiler]MONEY[/spoiler] [b]*sigh*[/b] People these days.
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[quote]Epic Games[/quote]
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I buy them all the time, if their an older game. Of course i'll buy it new if it came out recently.
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If i buy some game used its almost always a price drop of 20 to 25 euro thats more then 30 dollar price change instead of what youre claiming 4 dollar. Most stores here in holland need to sel used games otherwise there income is so low thanks to rent of the store and taxes that they wil go broke and need to close there shop. That would mean that a shit load of people would lose there jobs. Youre saying that we only need to buy new seald games that most of the time suck thanks to pre orders. The gaming industrie is the most earning industrie at the moment and the biggest. So sorry i will still buy used games and now and then a brand new one (i never pre order again after destiny) because i wanna support local gaming shops just normal workers who go tho their job on bycicle insted of their brand new bmw or mercedes and then say i do not earn enough. But thats just my opinion. Ps i'm from holland in europe so my spelling is far from perfect so i apolygize before anybody will say im stupid or that i need to go back to school.
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Thank you for posting this, I really hadn't thought about the other side of the issue. It does raise the question, though; what will happen to stores like Gamestop if the game consumers implement this policy? Will they lose too much revenue to operate, or transform into a more general electronics store with less focus on gaming (though they do seem to be moving in that direction, based on my local Gamestop)?
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1 ReplyI typically buy new for the first purchase, then if my disc is broken I'll buy used. I'll also buy used if, like savageflux said, the game isn't available new. Like, if I wanted to get Halo 3 now, I'd go buy it used, cause no one carries new copies of Halo 3 anymore. I'll also admit that the $60 price point is, well... see the image. Game devs and retailers (let's be honest here, they have influence on the price of games) should understand that people these days are not gonna pay for that.
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Edited by Studness4: 6/30/2013 11:28:19 AMOk a couple things if you buy or sell used to GameStop you are an idiot. Pay an extra 5 bucks and get a new sealed copy of the game, there is so much benefit to doing so, for both you and the developer. And if you need to sell sell online. You will likely get at least double in actual cash and not crappy credit to buy more overpriced used games. Secondly sure developers are getting screwed by used game sales, but what about us getting screwed? Preordering with its exclusive content means it impossible to play the FULL game unless you buy it 5 times. Also lets not forget about disc locked content and day one dlc. If they treat us like a bag of money who are they to expect loyalty?
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Edited by Heisenburg: 6/30/2013 8:31:31 AMLol, everyone is getting mad. Used games are stealing developers hard earned money, used games need to die, I wish MS stuck to their guns with the DRM policy, and I wished Sony and Nintendo would follow, unfortunately that didn't happen, maybe next generation. And we'll probably see less day 1 DLC, microtransactions and we'll get cheaper games if used games weren't a thing.
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Edited by McAttack: 6/29/2013 9:35:16 PMCan someone tweet Mr. Lee Perry and ask how judgment "happened" after Gears 3 turned the Gears series into a billion dollar franchise. I mean, if a billion dollars to the company "creating your hobby" mean't absolutely anything, then shouldn't there have been more than 9 characters for MP and more than 4 maps for the core versus mode. The game still cost 75 euros for me, with the "VIP pass". Now, the last of the passes DLC has recently been released and there is nothing but lobbies full of bots to play with. Lee, i think you left out the part where you say. "But remember, depending on the company, it might not matter to -blam!- how you acquire the game, so screw it, cheapest is always better".
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4 RepliesWhy the -blam!- is this still an issue? Used games are fine. No one complains when you buy a used car or DVD/CD, or even a used console. I understand the arguments against used games, but people have the right to purchase and own a pre-used product.
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Though I wish I could, new games simply cost too much for me to justify a purchase most times. With the exception of a few purchases I plan in advance. Thus, I am often forced to buy used games from my local mom-and-pop used game story. This, it can be argued, is even worse than the mainstream versions of this kind of store, because the developers receive NO money in response. However, there are some, if small, advantages to this method of buying games. Local game stores are often visited more than their chain-store variants because they often have better prices on their games, and the owners and workers are less restricted by any sort of company policy. this leads to a community of gamers, who through intercommunication, serve as a sort of gaming forum. These "forums" often tout, or condemn new release games based on their quality. Now I'm sure I'm not the only one who realizes a well informed gaming public often (monetarily)supports games who are "worthy" of praise given by their compatriots. Which is probably better than everyone wasting it on say...2k sports games every year. all things considered though, I'm a bad person and I'm not going to change because I can't afford it...
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I agree with most of what Mr. Perry is saying in this article. To summarize, yes I see how the used games market can hurt developers, I understand that gamers have a contradictory attitude towards games - a desire to have the immersive, compelling story but also have a story that never ends (an impossible feat to achieve in a single player experience, and if you include a successful multiplayer, a catch-22 since in today's gaming market you will be expected to deliver a sequel which expands upon that multiplayer), and the fact that these pressures force developers into making what can be seen as anti-consumer choices (always on internet connection, DRM, pay to play, and the like) in order to recoup lost revenue. I get it and I understand. Here's the thing though - none of the problems the video game industry is currently facing are unique. The entire entertainment industry from books, to film, to TV has to deal with an audience that wants a never ending story that, at the same time, never degrades in quality. Get over it and stop bemoaning the issue - it's not going away and plenty have been successful with offering a compelling narrative and knowing when to end it. The music industry found a way to deal, first with record stores selling used CDs, and then later with programs like Napster, Kazaa, and Limewire. They still have a way to go, granted, but once they stopped fighting so hard against the change and began to embrace it (the fact that the itunes store even exists is a huge deal) they found ways to offer content more conveniently and at a lower price. There are a plethora of ways developers can change the conversation for the better if they stopped whining and realized that they are not entitled to success and sales simply because they managed to publish a game. A few ideas to save money on games (and here's the kicker - pass those savings on to your customers) -Self publish through services like Kickstarter. -Offer your games through Steam or Origin only (used games cease to become a problem and production costs drop dramatically). -Create a free to play experience (ie. DotA 2) that relies on micro transactions to recoup development costs. -Either create and experience that is actually worth $60 or price your games accordingly. -Change the paradigm (I'm not a video game developer or an industry expert. I play games for fun and I notice trends. Presumably there are people out there whose job it is to think of new strategies to sell more games. Abandon the mindset that there's a scale with consumer interests on one end and industry interests on the other and that you have to sacrifice some of one to get some of the other. Innovate but be honest, open, and fair about it). If you want the problem of used games to go away it is the onus [b]of the developers[/b] to make it actually worth it to gamers not to patronize that service. Engaging the problem like it's some sort of moral issue, (that gamers are bad people for choosing to save money) while choosing to do nothing to actually combat it, is puerile and will never work.
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21 RepliesAt the end of the day, they don't loose money from used games in the sense that [b]they already got their damn money from the original sale.[/b] Now does that mean that the used games market doesn't detract sales from newer copies? well, maybe; but if developers want to keep making money then the closest they're going to get to a silver bullet is "make games that people will want to buy and budget accordingly" [i]not[/i] "take away your customer's rights and block your ears when someone calls you out on your false dichotomy"
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I do vote with my money. If a company has a good track record with me, I buy their game new. If not, I will only risk a few bucks on it used when it is selling for under $12. If they impress me, I give them another shot.
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If anyone tries using this thread to bitch about how the Xbox one was going to eliminate used gaming but now cant ima slap them.
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I personally was against the DRM MS wanted to implement with the XB1. However, if they stayed true to their word and had reduced price tag on new titles from day 1, maybe it wouldn't be so bad after-all. I buy a lot of games on Stream because of the price tags being so cheap it's hard not to, I end up playing games I've never heard of for the sake of trying them out, often finding some gems.
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1 Reply"Epic Games" haha. Stopped reading. I dont listen to people who work for Dick Blezinski
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you go to your local gamestop and 9 tenths of the games there are used.
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2 RepliesEdited by FoMan123: 6/28/2013 10:15:24 PMNever bought a used game and never traded in an old game for cash. Ever. And I never will. Additionally, I do not patronize specialty retailers that push used games even for new purchases. I only purchase hardware and software from retailers that do not engage in this practice and, ideally, I buy it directly from the makers themselves.
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Quite well put together, unlike a certain someone else's ramblings... He does raise a good point, being forced to tack-on multiplayer or other gimmicks to prevent trade-ins. A digital distribution system could be a good bet, provided they remember the good deals part of Steam.
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Edited by crispychicken49: 6/29/2013 7:29:36 AMHere's what I say about this. I don't mind paying a few bucks extra for a new Crysis game or Battlefield a while after release. Crytek and DICE are both very good developers and I feel they should be supported. However giving money to a studio who pumps out the same damn game every year? (Infinity Ward) I'll buy it used a week after just to spite them. Certain Devs deserve to be supported over others. If that extra 20 bucks I saved from buying CoD: Ghosts used will go to buying BF4 new, then that's fine by me. Overall I agree with him though.
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Agree 100%. Great read.
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wow so much hate for used games. and so much petty for the devs on here. i typically buy new games, but if its an older game from a couple years ago, no way i'm buying it new. pre owned game system is not bad. it comes in handy in times.
