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6/21/2013 5:55:57 PM
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I am pro-choice, but it's a lie to say that a fetus isn't a human being.
I'm not expecting to change any opinions, mostly because of how concrete so many people here are in their opinions. Considering that most of us are in high school or college, I can't say as if I expect much sympathy for fetuses, let alone an understanding of why life spans from conception to death. I'm simply stating the facts.
Before conception, there are, in the most basic forms, a sperm and an egg. Apart, they are worthless, but together they form life. The moment the sperm meets the egg, the embryo forms. This "mass of cells" cannot move forward without each previous step of development. The six-month fetus could not exist unless the five-month fetus existed, just as the baby could not exist unless conception occurred. That being said, there is only one conclusion that is not subjective: The embryo created immediately after conception IS programmed to become a baby.
Let's cut to the chase: There are nine months between conception and the birth of a baby. In that span of time, this baby develops at incredibly fast rate. Within a few short months, said "sac of cells" is now a viable life form. That "useless cluster" quickly becomes just as equal as you and me. What's the point of what I'm saying? You can't arbitrarily define a time when a baby can no longer be aborted. It's ridiculous, but it's (even more-so) absolutely -blam!-ing retarded. A baby's life begins when life beings: Conception.
As for myself, I'm pro-choice. Abortion is absolutely not a mother's choice, considering the decision affects both the baby and the father, as well. Abortion doesn't exist because mothers deserve the right to control their own body. The fact of the matter is that they're also controlling another body, and wrongly so. The reason why abortion exists is because people mess up. That reason is horseshit in justifying murder (i.e. abortion), but I get it. I get it because I know that people make mistakes, and a quick boning doesn't deserve a lifetime of consequences.
THAT is why abortion is legal. Not because the baby isn't alive. Not because the mother has the right to kill another person because she wants to. It's unconstitutional for the baby. Abortion, per se, is unconstitutional. But we allow it because we have to.
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1 ReplyDear pro-lifers, what if the fetus has a horrible birth defect? Like the lungs aren't big enough for it to live, or the brain isn't developing, should a mother be bale to have an abortion to keep the child from suffering?
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1 ReplySorry but a fetus is not a human.
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7 RepliesThis is the first pro-choice argument I've seen that admits that fetuses are human life and that it should be legal simply because it "has to be". But I still disagree. You say a "quick boning doesn't deserve a lifetime of consequences", yet that's exactly what is happening; you're denying a human life, [i]life[/i], for the sake of convenience.
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I like killing babies
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So you see it as the "undo" button? That's honestly a terrible view of the human dignity. To say that child is a mistake and should die. It sounds bad I know but it's the truth... Most people don't like the truth so they ignore it or try to justify their acts however they can. :'( it's sad. I believe you should love both the mother and child. Give your time and support.
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I still enjoy killig babies
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Edited by Quantum: 6/23/2013 6:33:58 AMRemember that even if we drop the semantics surrounding "life", there is another argument at play. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/25/miscarriage-murder-roevwade-personhood How do you justify this? Certain miscarriages are also known as natural abortions. What's stopping woman from being prosecuted from such events? Or back alley abortions, for that matter. That, and why is there a belief that the rights of a fetus are put over the rights over a fully grown woman? You do realize that unwanted babies are much more likely to grow up with miserable lives? Why must we force the mother to have it? Conception is not a thunder shatteringly amazing process; there are 100,000 eggs in a woman's body. If you place the limit at conception, you can actually stop numerous forms of contraception in terms of legal technicalities. That, and knowing when you are pregnant can be a surprise to women; does that mean if they take an ECP they are murders because they destroyed the embryo after an arbitrary point in time? Where do you draw the line without compromising on contraceptives (which are extremely important). Just starting the discussion from a different perspective.
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[quote]Within a few short months, said "sac of cells" is now a viable life form. That "useless cluster" quickly becomes just as equal as you and me. What's the point of what I'm saying? You can't arbitrarily define a time when a baby can no longer be aborted.[/quote]And the operative word is "becomes". It does not start out that way, but it becomes that way. When it's a [i]viable, sapient[/i] life form, then by all means, give it the same rights that we give to fully-developed viable, sapient human beings. But before that point, its capacity for thought and emotion is limited [i]at best[/i], and certainly doesn't come close to being as valuable as, or more valuable than, the thoughts and emotions of its host. And [i]that[/i] is why abortion is and should be legal.
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1 ReplyA seed is not a flower, and an embryo is not a human.
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1 ReplyEdited by M37h3w3: 6/22/2013 4:47:47 AM[quote]...it's a lie to say that a fetus isn't a human being...[/quote] To lie requires knowledge of the truth and willingly say the opposite. That's not the case here. People who say a fetus isn't a human being don't think that the fetus is a human being and are saying the opposite. They honestly think that it isn't a human being. There's no lie involved. They simple fundamentally disagreement with your definition. I do too. A fetus is a clump of cells. It's as much a human being as my liver. It lacks a consciousness with is central to being classified as a human being.
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2 RepliesCells that do not formulate their own thoughts are not human to me.
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I agree. Except I'm not pro choice. Unless extreme circumstances are involved. Which doesn't happen often.
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2 RepliesThe issue of abortion has little to do with when a human being is a human being; it's about when a human being should be seen as a legal person. Still, it's good to know when people are alive.
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6 RepliesEdited by Quantum: 6/22/2013 12:49:55 PM[quote]Let's cut to the chase: There are nine months between conception and the birth of a baby. In that span of time, this baby develops at incredibly fast rate. Within a few short months, said "sac of cells" is now a viable life form. [/quote] Not necessarily, natural abortions AKA a miscarriage could occur. It may simply die off sooner or later. [quote] That "useless cluster" quickly becomes just as equal as you and me. [/quote] No it doesn't, life is defined as consciousness, a sac of cells lacks a brain. If your heart stops beating and you are not brain dead (in that short period of time) you are still alive. If someone dies it means their brain has died. See where I am going? Legal death is brain death. [quote] What's the point of what I'm saying? You can't arbitrarily define a time when a baby can no longer be aborted. [/quote] Um, yes we can. 3 months is more than enough time for the mother to make the decision, and also places it at the convinient point where the fetus starts developing a brain. [quote] It's ridiculous, but it's (even more-so) absolutely -blam!-ing retarded. A baby's life begins when life beings: Conception.[/quote] You know, I was hoping for a much stronger argument for this despite the OP being fairly long. Turns out it went back to the old arbitrary definition. Edit: Did people seriously think I was referring to life in general and not human life in AN ABORTION THREAD? My argument is that death is defined as someone being "brain dead", and by that argument life can also be defined as "not brain dead" when referring to humans. Even if you consider cells to be legally defined as life, that means sperm and eggs cells are also legally defined as life.
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I think people should be able to choose. It's none of my business, or anyone's other then the mothers and fathers close family that they abort their baby. So why should I care? Do you of guys guys remember when you popped out of your mother? Let alone before that? I didn't think so. Just stay out of other peoples business.
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I agree that a fetus is a human being. But not in the same sense as a human being with experience and emotions. It's experience is suspended. It is unconscious. I do think that abortion should be allowed though, there are many reasons that justify it and even in the case where you would deny someone who simply doesn't want a kid, an abortion, you are forcing that kid into an environment where it is quite likely going to be in a shitty environment.
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I'll have to agree with the OP on this one. Abortion is murder.
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How the heck is it a lie to have an opinion on a subject matter where the line is as clear as mud? You lost all credibility in your title.
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I agree with everything you said, except for being Pro-choice. These are good and true reasons why abortion should be illegal, but while I agree that people do mess up, they should have to deal with the consequences. Excluding -blam!- and incest, and the life of the mother (even though I don't completely agree with the last one), which are the only conditions that an abortion should be legal, people should have to live with their choices, not make them go away with a doctor's office visit and some pills. They don't need to raise the child, they can be put up for adoption, because there is always an infertile couple that want children. No human life should be extinguished, and not allowed a chance at life simply because somebody got drunk, or made questionable choices. Offering abortions simply promotes this behavior, and needlessly extinguishes innocent lives in the process. If more people dealt with the consequences of their actions (even outside this topic) we would be better off as a society.
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1 ReplyEdited by Ninchiito: 6/22/2013 5:18:32 AM[quote]To lie requires knowledge of the truth and willingly say the opposite. That's not the case here. People who say a fetus isn't a human being don't think that the fetus is a human being and are saying the opposite. They honestly think that it isn't a human being. There's no lie involved. They simple fundamentally disagreement with your definition. I do too. A fetus is a clump of cells. It's as much a human being as my liver. It lacks a consciousness with is central to being classified as a human being.[/quote] - Methew
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Dis gun b good
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[i] [/i]
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I feel that if the mother yields the baby, she should be able to make the choice. Whichever choice she makes will stay with her forever, and will serve as her own consequence. Whether or not YOU call it murder does not matter. It's all in the mother's mind. We shouldn't force her to have a baby when she doesn't want it and she'll just throw it in a foster home.
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We could argue about whether a fetus is a human being or whether it is truly alive until the world ends and not get anywhere. It's definitely not pointless to do so, but it won't get either the pro-choice or the pro-life sides anywhere.
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I wouldn't define it as a person until it has consciousness. Until then, to me it's on the same level as a plant.
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9 RepliesEdited by Verbatim: 6/21/2013 6:02:14 PMI don't really care if it's a life or not. I don't want it, and it won't want me. Kill it. It is far better off not being alive, because life is one of the worst "gifts" you can give to someone.
