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Edited by Spawn:
11/3/2013 10:46:16 PM
28
Boss Battles in Destiny: Why Bungie should redefine "the boss"!
[quote][b]Touchy Subject Alert! BOSS BATTLES![/b][/quote]
Think back to your earlier gaming days, maybe that was decades ago, perhaps it was last summer. Whatever it was, there was a time in video games where Boss Battles were the true test of a gamer. The enabled you to use all your knowledge and in-game mechanics to prove yourself against a formidable opponent.
Before I begin, I'd like to cover a few things to know in general:
[quote]FPS = First Person Shooter, referring to the game genre
QTE = Quick Time Event, hitting a button that triggers a cut scene or forward progression (usually flipping a switch/reaching a checkpoint etc)
[b]Categories for Boss Battles[/b] ([url=http://halo.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=76001192&postRepeater1-p=3]credit to Recon Number 54[/url])
A: Final Boss Battle (grind away)
B: Countdown. (time's a'wastin'!)
C: Race.
D: Puzzle.
E: Platforming. (Jump boy, jump!)
F: Combo-ception (learn the next 3 steps in the 900 button sequence, die and then repeat)[/quote]
[u][i]Forward Progression[/i][/u]
Now while we don't know exactly what will be permissible for in game mechanics in Destiny as a player (I'll discuss this further later), we do know that Bungie is focused on the cooperative expierence from the ground up. We know that [i]it is possible[/i] to play through Destiny as a solo experience.
[quote][b]Destiny is an:[/b]
> Open World Shooter
> Player Classes/Faction Based
> Cooperative Experience
> Designed for "endless hours" of gameplay
> Includes "raids" and "dungeons"
> Has "safezones"[/quote]
[u][i]What makes a boss battle a memorable one? [/i][/u]
Think back to those earlier games I was mentioning, yes they can be recent releases. What other games come to mind that have included boss battles on a bigger scale? I'm talking about [url=http://darksouls.wikidot.com/bosses]Dark Souls[/url], [url=http://www.wowwiki.com/Boss]World of Warcraft[/url], [url=http://www.ign.com/wikis/borderlands-2/Bosses]Borderlands[/url], [url=http://greedygamer.blogspot.com/2008/04/gears-of-war-big-bosses-and-tough.html]Gears of War[/url] and even [url=https://www.google.com/search?q=Crysis+Boss+Battles&aq=f&oq=Crysis+Boss+Battles&aqs=chrome.0.57l2j0l2j62l2.3254j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=Crysis+Boss+Fights&oq=Crysis+Boss+Fights&gs_l=serp.3..0l2j0i30l2.2493.4555.0.4634.14.13.1.0.0.1.404.2675.0j1j6j2j1.10.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.5.psy-ab.AS9JTpAlIcw&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=8b6e451abe7bae32&biw=1440&bih=779]Crysis[/url].
Anyone ever or [url=http://metroid.retropixel.net/mprime/bosses.php]still play Metroid?[/url] Those boss battles are player immersifying and game mechanic oriented. Especially for a shooter, you're not only worried about shooting the target. You're worried about ducking, running, jumping, grappling and beating the clock.
Think back to Gears of War, specifically the Juggernaut battles. You and your squad of teammates are taken away from the traditional, "run in, lob grenades, duck, cover and clean up the stragglers". You're running for your life as you can only find a short time to actually shoot back. My first play-through of Gears of War 1 with my brothers was terrifying when we played this sequence, especially at 3 am. The boss was unpredictable and you're always adjusting to his movements trying to get that lucky shot. I still to this day remember that sequence.
Through all the games I mentioned, I feel boss battles play a significant role throughout the story and it breaks up the "traditional gameplay" that you've been lugging around with you since you started your journey in whatever world you choose.
I was reading this [url=http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-17-destiny-bungie-unveils-its-shared-world-shooter]EuroGamer article[/url] on Destiny this morning and it urged me to ponder these words further:
[quote][i]Players love MMOs and open world games more for the emergent gameplay than the gameplay crafted by their designers. They remember the things that happened because players got together and did stuff, whether it be some dramatic boss fight at the end of an hour-long raid or the exploration of a cave discovered off the beaten track. Story lead Joe Staten expects Destiny will work in a similar way, with players building their "personal legend".[/i][/quote]
I am going to be comparing Destiny to World of Warcraft for a brief time. Yes, I know that Destiny, isn't WoW, there are similar elements to compare, specifically with "raids" that I'm addressing. Destiny's focus on cooperative gaming leads me to believe we'll be seeing more "epic boss fights". Have you played or seen anyone complete a Dungeon Raid for World of Warcraft? Granted in Destiny we're able to stick with our "squads" in teams of six, but who says there has to be a limit on how many "squads" you have to stick with. I feel Destiny will have a similar approach to their raids. Taking part in an organized party of 30+ player is fun as hell, but you have to know who is playing what role - tank, mage, buffer, healer etc - to work together and pass through the boss.
If we're playing our roles as Titans, Warlocks, Hunters and Vanguards (and whatever else), those memorable experiences will come to the players if we succeed or fail. Each role is vital to the success of passing these bosses/dungeons though. Should each class have other abilities or traits that the others cannot possess? Absolutely, otherwise, what is the point in having different classes?
QTE's (Quick Time Events) are debatable. I am personally not a fan if they're overdone, but I see the place for them. Abuse them and they quickly become boring to the player and actually create a false sense of immersion, which is what you don't want. "Do this button sequence or you die!", try again.
Too much gets stale and boring to the player. We really didn't start seeing QTE's until the past 4/5 years in not only FPS games, but RPG, Racing and Family games as well.
Think back to Bungie's Halo games. What were the bosses we remember? Tartarus, Scarab battles with marines having rocket launchers on mongooses (yes burrito, just for you), the Prophet of Regret battle in Halo 2, Warthog runs at the end of Halo CE and Halo 3, the heretic leader in Halo 2 with dual plasma rifles, all the memorable brute chieftain rounds in ODST firefight and more.
Imagine the possibilities with Destiny though. Meet up with your friends at the same time, plan it out. Know your attack plan for an hour long raid and what to expect from the boss. I hope that Bungie changes the formula all together. You don't know what boss will be at the end, even after researching and looking them up ahead of time. Perhaps the time of day (realtime) that you begin your raid affects what boss there will be at the end, or how many players you're taking with you.
There are so many unanswered questions about Destiny, but we have to wait for more information. The floor is yours community.
Additional Reading: [url=http://www.screwattack.com/news/top-25-favorite-boss-battles-woodyman-archives]Top 25 boss battles in video game history[/url]
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2 RepliesGood thoughts, but I differ from you on some theories. [quote]Taking part in an organized party of 30+ player is fun as hell, but you have to know who is playing what role - tank, mage, buffer, healer etc - to work together and pass through the boss.[/quote] First, I don't imagine this being a mechanic, even in raids. 30+ players would be ridiculous for the action genre. You couldn't find something for everyone to do, short of pulling a wow and just letting me empty my clip into the boss time after time while occasionally stepping out of his "One Shot Death Fire Ray". I think Bungie realized this and is going to be keeping us on a more "Wow Dungeon" level, in which coordination, planning, and cooperation come together to win the tougher fights. I also disagree with the set class archetype. I think classes will define the 'flavor of play' more than lock you into an archetype of 'healing, DPS, or tanking'. Want to go toe-to-toe with the enemies and do the infamous 'Hunter-dance" a la Halo style? Play a Titan. Do you prefer the gratifying thud of an enemy hitting the floor after your assassination brought them low? Play a Hunter. Do you prefer distracting your enemies with misdirection or using high-mobility abilities to position yourself advantageously? Utiliize the powers of the Warlock. Again, I think people are straying a little too far into the MMORPG stereotype to realize how the model could be successfully adapted to the Action Game genre.
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There's nothing called a Juggernaut in Gears. Maybe you meant the Berserker.
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4 RepliesEdited by SkilPhil: 3/6/2013 1:56:24 AMId like to see some boss fights that require more than one player, like they can only be beaten through actions that require multiple players.
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2 RepliesI really hope raids in Destiny are like raids in WoW. I can just imagine 20+ characters taking down a HUGE boss simultaneously. Seeing fireballs lobbed from all directions from the Warlocks, rockets getting shot from Titans and seeing hunters do whatever they do. It would be so epic. I for some reason doubt it would work similarly, but I still want that epic co-op gameplay.
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Edited by Procelyte: 4/2/2013 2:33:02 AMI really would like the idea of boss battles in a shooter, if they're done right. Bungie should look at the Metroid Prime series for an idea of how great boss battles [i]CAN [/i]be in a first-person shooter, especially a "mythic sci-fi" like Destiny.
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2 RepliesThe Halo 2 boss battles were terrible, they broke the rules of the game and brought players out of any sense of immersion. Rules that applied to all Elites suddenly don't apply to the Heretic Leader. Why? Who knows. Falling off Tartarus' platform will kill you but if he falls off he jumps back up and is fine. Why? Who knows. And on and on and on. Halo has great boss battles, like the Scarab battles, but they quite often don't appear as boss battles. The engine room in The Maw aboard the Pillar of Autumn is a great example of a Halo boss battle. I'm hoping Destiny follows this style of boss.
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Gears of War 1 Beserker, good times. Still my favorite Boss of that whole series. Borderlands 2 bosses were kinda weak, I died more tying to get to them than I did when facing them. The rocket/mongoose combo for Scarab busting was awesome. In Destiny, I'm hoping for good bosses that challenge you to play differently than what you are use to (GoW1 Beserker fight for instance, or how Dark Souls' bosses might make you play cautiously than you normally do). The only thing I'm worried about is people 'cheesing' the bosses (video above), because of the FPS aspect anyone could sit back and snipe and hide until the boss dies. So please make the bosses killable.
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You know, I agree with you. it's been too long (outside of Borderlands 1&2) that I have had a "Boss" battle in an FPS. Halo 2 is going on ten years now, and that is the last clear one [i]I[/i] remember doing. It would be great to gather your friends to tackle a "loot giant". I haven't played an MMORPG (like WoW) in-depth enough to get to a boss creature, but I have been around when my friends have. I would hope that we may get something like that in Destiny. Also, I feel like quick time events are the developer's way of being lazy. They were fun back in the halcyon days of Resident Evil 4, when technology wasn't what it is today. Though, I myself wouldn't know the first thing to do if a developer's kit was placed in front of me, I would hope that people that have an expert understanding in such would go beyond what has been done as a (in my opinion) quick-fix McGuffin for a decade now. /Rant
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I can almost assure you that there will be bosses in a game like Destiny.
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If we can have 25-mans against a larger, perhaps 50-"man" opposition force, including maybe a larger FB like a large tank........ I would be sold. Sold, bought, purchased, given to another in exchange for currency, all of the above.
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Edited by Kilroy: 3/7/2013 9:57:46 PMA Random or Dynamic Encounter with super-tough or difficult enemies would be amazing. Imagine that you and group of buddies are on a distant planet, camping for the night and scout the area and see a giant monster bursting from the ground Either your group hides in fear or a multitude of events of could just from that happening!
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A boss should inspire his soldiers, effecting soldiers under his command with buffs, Fights should be difficult as they switch up gear depending on players current tactics and style. Players should be feel the pressure, making sure to check another back. Random reinforcements, never the same battle. Its gotta be fights you don't know what to expect, that you need to adapt to in the flow of combat, and feel the rush of failure in your shadow. ....Ohh, who are we kidding, its gonna have a difficulty that anyone can handle so long as they make use of cover, but perhaps a Heroic mode could be offered with fights that could have your sweating in real life
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1 ReplyI'm thinking something like a scarab type boss battle as those were fun. Although it should be alot more challenging and should require some teamwork but comes with a big pay of(like Gear). Or a more challenging boss that you cant kill with conventional weapons like the berserker in GOW (Very memorable boss for me). Also vehicles should be a big part of these bosses.
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1 ReplyThe problem with boss battles is that most are not well done. Halo 2 for example how many times did johnson head shot that brute, plenty of times. But when you play regulary against enimies who aren't bosses they aren't exactly given the special privelage to absorb your bullets. Bosses become bullet sponges in most games espeicially FPS, or a QTE which is just bad. Another example is halo 4 , some people were dissapointed by the ending , but think about how that fight would go, you'd shoot him up after dodging an attack. Damaging him and then he jumps away and sicks enimies on you. Too make a good boss battle you have to be able to put the boss on the same level as if you were fighting any other enemy. Even if the battle ends quickly because of how good the player is at the game. The boss also has to take visible damage, and show a desperation like sweating or becoming more aggressive. Theres also nothing wrong with calling in reinforcements but i believe the boss should call out to them. Come to his aid and swarm around him to protect him. The boss also has to be little bit more intelleligent than your average NPC, to make a good battle you need an intelligent a.i who can dodge and fight back as aggressive as the player. This isn't easy steps for an FPS.
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This is definitely a good idea. I usually think of boss battles as a really big version of a bad guy, like in those cheesy games. Now that you mention those boss battles from Halo, I realize how awesome boss battles can be. I really loved the Tartarus battle, because you had to make some sort of strategy while being helped by NPCs, but it wasn't overdone. Adding these kinds of boss battles in vital or secret areas like in some MMOs would really make the game for me.
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1 ReplyDark Souls is the best. But yeah I want bosses that take like 30mins to an hour for a final boss to really stress me out to where i just wanna give up, I want bosses where I just want to throw my 360 out the window because it is so frustrating.
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2 RepliesOne thing I would like is there to be an "Unbeatable" Boss. Some games have it where there is an optional Boss to fight that is insanely hard. Like Cramarex in Borderlands. It's one Boss that is just insane to fight and makes you want to cry. I think being able to fight the Bosses again in repeat stuff would be nice.
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13 RepliesBoss Fights. In Space. Let that sink in.
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3 RepliesI hope there's no boss battles. This is a FPS with rpg elements.
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2 RepliesI really think you were onto something with the Metroid thing. Especially if the bosses were similar to bosses in the Prime series. Each of those bosses had varied methods of attack and defense and often different stages. They had specific weaknesses, so you actually had to think as you fought them. Most of them were fairly massive too. They need to do something like that if they have bosses at all.
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I really wish that Destiny is alot like a cooperative Skyrim, in the scence of the open would being huge and sharing that world with friends and ocasionaly a chance encounter with some strangers! That would be very very very very very nice =)
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1 ReplyEhh I don't want planned bosses I want more dynamic encounters Like Tank patrols, or Scarabs
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2 RepliesEdited by NoWai98989: 3/7/2013 12:32:37 AMEveryone seems to be relating Destiny to WoW in the raid sense. Large group of players working together to down one or more epic bosses with some trash mobs in between. Though, MMOs have shown us a slightly different route that raids can take. One in particular is Star Wars Galaxy (Pre CU). During the Mandalorian raid (I can't seem to remember what they actually called this..I think it was called an Operation), several groups of players would come together to complete a mission. Nearly every group of mobs required careful planning, strategy, and teamwork. If your raid worked well together you could win the fight with only mild difficulty. If your raid was just a pick up group going for Manalorian armor parts/pieces (at the time, was the only type of armor to have resistance to lightsaber, and lightsaber was not classified as "Kinetic"), you generally spent more time dead than alive. There were a couple of bosses, with decent mechanics (not too well thought out) and usually dropped a piece of armor or two each. The point here is, these raids were designed for group of ~12-18. No need for 30 man raids, a solid group of friends can have a TON of fun without spending hours on end for a couple of drops. I do like the idea of dynamic raids, the surprise aspect would make each experience unique. Couple this with content that is relatively difficult on the "trash level", raid sizes of no more than 3 groups, game mechanics that make the boss fights puzzling with the requirement for team effort and class roles, and you've got one hell of a raid zone that is immensely rewarding. Just my 2 cents :)
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4 RepliesYes, I do believe that bungie should revive boss battles. When you just throw a grenade on the didact, I was disappointed that I was not going to have that boss battle I was expecting from the beginning. I remember going against the monitor, in my early days of gaming, and trying to blast him to death with the Spartan laser
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I don't think the traditional boss battle would work (except the occasional monster hunter style fight, which might be nice). Maybe they could move to more of a scenario based arena fight like there are in RPGs. You enter the challenge area and have to resolve a rigged battle against a set number of opponents, in a set time period, with set handicaps. Say the boss battle is an assault-enemy-position setup, against a dozen guards, to be accomplished in ten minutes with one life rules active. Fail and you get sent back to the arena entrance. Win and you get the loot. Keys to enter the arena are sometimes prizes in themselves, limiting your ability to tad part in the best paying fights. Question is how to create scenarios that don't boil down to "shoot the big thing", since this is played as an fps.
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1 ReplyIn my mind, a good boss fight always forces you to think: all the better if you come up with a clever solution on the fly that actually works. Identifying and exploiting a boss' vulnerabilities is what I think makes those types of encounters great. The goal should be an encounter that ultimately makes you feel like you have gone through a rite of passage. You need to feel that beating the challenge is proof that you are a clever, skilled, badass.
