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originally posted in:Secular Sevens
Edited by Mad Max:
1/30/2013 12:46:17 AM
68
For the longest time I didn't know I was an atheist. [long story]
[i]S7 is pretty quiet these days. Just thought I'd share a little story.[/i]
My dad comes from a very Catholic family; my mom, Jewish. Both had pretty rough childhoods which involved little time for church and religious activities. After they married, they pretty much severed ties with their faith. We never went to church. Never said prayers. Never said "bless you". Never even talked about religion, faith, afterlife, etc. That was normal for me.
It wasn't until my junior year of high school did I realize I was an atheist.
Sure, I had friends who were religious. Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Mormon; you name it. I wasn't unfamiliar with their belief systems, either...I just never questioned my own beliefs...or lack thereof. I grew up in a pretty conservative town, and the Christian church was a big deal. The first thing that someone asked me when I moved in to town was if I was Christian. I'm pretty sure I responded with "umm, I guess??"
It was one particular day that made it clear. One of my best friends, who I had grown up with, randomly said to me during lunch "Max, I'm sorry you're going to hell."
[i]Whoa, whoa whoa. Hold the phone[/i], I thought. I was a good person! I was nice to people, I did community service, I was close with my family and cared for them when they needed me. Surely someone as good as me shouldn't be going to hell. There's no way that such a loving God would send me to hell just because I didn't believe in him. Similarly, someone who was a good, devout Christian such as my friend wouldn't wish such a terrible fate on me.
It didn't click until right then. God wasn't good. He wasn't a universally nice guy who did everything in his power [which is unlimited, mind you; this guy created the [i]universe[/i]] to make sure there was peace on Earth. The world is a shitty place plagued with war, disease, famine, and crime. If God was so powerful, why didn't he do anything to stop it? Which later led me to Epicurus:
[quote]Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?[/quote]
That was it. I was an atheist. I mean, I always have been, but at this point I actually knew it.
I started reading the Bible, just for some context and understanding. The glaring contradictions in passages, and utter hatred that occurs really turned me off. To me, it was a colossal waste of time to even worry about what God thinks of me. He comes off as a needy teenage girl who requires attention at all times.
So, if you read this, great. If not, no biggie. Just thought some of you might like a little story. Hell, I'll even make it not private.
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12 RepliesEdited by Spilled Milk: 2/2/2013 9:33:43 PMOk, you can say whatever you want. But with what I have experienced, I would be a fool NOT to believe in God.
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6 RepliesEdited by L00: 1/31/2013 8:03:17 PMI think the error in Epicurus' reasoning was in his assumption that if God is able but not willing to prevent evil, he must be malevolent. Eliminating evil would require limiting man's free will. That would be enslavement, which would be evil itself!
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5 RepliesA response to Epicurus/"Why is there evil?" by St. Augustine: [quote]"[i]And in the universe, even that which is called evil, when it is regulated and put in its own place, only enhances our admiration of the good; for we enjoy and value the good more when we compare it with the evil. For the Almighty God, who, as even the heathen acknowledge, has supreme power over all things, being Himself supremely good, would never permit the existence of anything evil among His works, if He were not so omnipotent and good that He can bring good even out of evil. For what is that which we call evil but the absence of good? In the bodies of animals, disease and wounds mean nothing but the absence of health; for when a cure is effected, that does not mean that the evils which were present—namely, the diseases and wounds—go away from the body and dwell elsewhere: they altogether cease to exist; for the wound or disease is not a substance, but a defect in the fleshly substance,—the flesh itself being a substance, and therefore something good, of which those evils—that is, privations of the good which we call health—are accidents. Just in the same way, what are called vices in the soul are nothing but privations of natural good. And when they are cured, they are not transferred elsewhere: when they cease to exist in the healthy soul, they cannot exist anywhere else."[/i][/quote] I'd offer my own opinion on things, but I don't think you really want to hear other opinions; you just want to blog. That being said, who can't resist quoting old dead people?
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21 RepliesArgument of evil = worst possible argument against God.
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9 RepliesI see a lot of reason in being an Athiest, but I stick to the 'clockmaker' model of Christianity. I believe that God crafted everything the Universe needs to run (physics, science, everything), then just gave us a little push. Evolution, the forming of stars and galaxies, everything works and the 'clock' runs. If something bad happens on Earth, the effect that has on the Universe is immeasurably small, and is like a clock running a nano-second fast. Not unless the effects get too great should there be any need to intervene. It's not the most sound belief, I know, but I think until we can ultimately disprove the possibility of a creator, I'll hold on to the belief that the creation of the Universe had some driving force behind it. A God doesn't need to hold our hands through every hardship. If he did, what would that make us? We pride ourselves in our ingenuity and bravery, both of which result from bad situations. If God helped with everything, we would have no needs or wants for invention to fill. We would have no reason or motivation to excel and prosper as a species. I think God not fixing our problems ends up being better for humanity in the long run. Time continues infinitely in both directions, and there's no telling what the distant future would hold if our problems simply disappeared. I guess think of it like this: There are two children in two very different families. One is the child of a wealthy couple, and is provided for constantly. The other is the child of a low-income family, and is often left responsible for taking care of themselves. Eventually, both decide to move out. The spoiled child instantly struggles on their own. His parents had told him what he needed to do to be financially stable, but doing those things was not as easy as he had expected. The other child had learned to be responsible with money, possessions, and food, and is able to successfully support themselves on their own. A bit lengthy, but the point is that hardship is often the best way to teach, and necessity is often the best way to learn. Humanity as a whole learns and changes based on the suffering we, as a species, endure. Sometimes, evil has to happen for us to better ourselves. I hope that came across how I wanted it to.
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5 RepliesI'm a Christian, and I value your opinion. Christians that have the nerve to tell random people that they are going to hell make me sick, as I believe people are saved by grace, not through faith. Whether you believe the Bible is true or not, there are contradictions in it because it was written by various people over many years. [quote]Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?[/quote] And on that quote, I've thought about it many times and still have no solid answer for myself.
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6 RepliesNice attention seeking thread. Many people are atheists, and the only reason you shared this is to get a rise out of the religious members. Nice attempt though.
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holy -blam!- why bump this [i]again[/i]
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2 Replies[quote]I was an atheist. I mean, I always have been, but at this point I actually knew it.[/quote] Someone who finally realizes you don't "become" an atheist.
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4 RepliesEdited by Edmi Wohusee: 9/6/2013 12:32:11 AMI officially became an atheist last year. I always knew in the back of my mind that God didn't really exist, but the thought of him [i]not[/i] existing was terrifying. I grew up, though. Death is a natural part of life. It's better to embrace it than to run away from the truth.
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Edited by RedPhantom: 2/1/2013 9:43:44 PMYou see, your friend is an idiot. It's not anybody's place to tell someone else what to believe, or if they're going to Hell. As for the war, disease(spread of), famine, and crime, people cause those, not whatever you do or don't believe in.
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I wish more people were like Bruce damn it! We wouldn't have problems anymore.
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Why is this hidden?
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Almost word for word my story as well. Except my mom was a Catholic and my dad a Protestant. Other than that, I even had a friend (female, like that matters) who was the one who needed to pray with me, so I wouldn't go to hell (this was right before I joined the Army, she wanted to make sure I was right with God before I fought in a war.) Though, I didn't think about it until years later, when I was at UCSD.
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2 RepliesOh, this isn't globally hidden any more. Das cool.
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1 ReplyThis reminds me of the fact that my brother's Religious Education teacher complained to my mum that my brother would not accept anything short of a scientific explanation of god and would constantly point out plot holes in the Bible.
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20 RepliesEdited by ash: 2/4/2013 9:28:39 AMEh, I don't really care much for arguments based on morality. And I'm not a fan of this overused argument because it assumes that religion can be treated as a logical subject and broken down like that. It seems irrelevant to me whether you should believe (or not) based on how moral you expect a god to be. Why should he conform to your view, or even have to make sense? If you disregard the validity of a claim just because it doesn't make sense, that's pretty foolish IMO. Plenty of facts don't make sense from a human perspective, but it doesn't make them any less true. I should probably point out round about now that I'm not religious in the slightest, nor is this an attempt to defend religion, and I'll tell you why. I don't adhere to a religion just because, there's no reason to. You can go looking for thousands of reasons not to believe (and there are thousands), but that strikes me as after-the-fact confirmation bias, and is ultimately unnecessary.
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Congrats, its good that you choose to think for yourself. And many theists do just that, they make their own choices. But people that feel the need to tell their opinion regarding these beliefs are kinda annoying, let people have their beliefs, and keep it to yourself you know. Not that im saying the thread is wrong, its one of the main issues i have with theists, atheists, and agnostic atheists.
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14 RepliesOP, I'm not going to read your story but please PLEASE PLEAAAASEEEE consider this vid^
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9 RepliesI agree. How can people possibly claim God is great when he'll apparently shun a good person to hell just for not believing in him? Or even worse, when he'll send someone who is good and believes in him to hell just for being homosexual? It doesn't make sense.
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Edited by CrazzySnipe55: 2/5/2013 5:05:14 AMI'm a Christian with a semi-Clockmaker ideology, which would technically make me a Deist but I believe facets of Christianity and it's all very confusing. I completely understand the point of view of atheists and never attempt to argue it, because logically their points they make make sense (for the most part). I believe in a supernatural Creator and Controller based on faith, not based on scientific fact, just as I believe many other things that aren't based on science (certain preferences; favorite color, political affiliation, etc.). I have my own dimensional theory (if you can call the musings of a 17-year-old with a B- in science a "theory") about how God functions and exists but every time I say it people tell me I'm stupid so I won't put it here unless prompted, but I've just got my own reasons to believe in religion, essentially. I believe in the Big Bang, science, evolution, etc. etc., I just also happen to believe in religion. Congrats on your realization however, OP. [superdupersarcasm]Have fun in hell, you satanist![/superdupersarcasm]
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5 RepliesGoddamn global ignore function. Don't tell me what threads I want to look at or not! I don't give a crap if a bunch of religious people on the mains hid this thread, I want to be able to see all the threads in my group!
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Good post OP. ITT: Fallacies. Fallacies everywhere.
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2 RepliesMfw this thread is hidden.
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1 Reply>global mute lol
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2 RepliesFor a moment I had to think which max you were... it seems that you're the one I like more. An interesting story, I too went trough a similar process, if you had came to ask my views when I was in elementary, I'd have identified myself a a christian, but when I was around 14, I started to really think about the world and by the time I went to confirmation camp (not sure if this is done outside my country...) I was a devoted atheist. And Epicurus is awesome! That's the exact same thing I fell in love with!
