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Edited by Sayo:
9/28/2024 3:15:02 PM
24
Stop using outliers to nerf archetypes
The twab 2 days ago mentions archetypes that are apparently over preforming and a few of them are pulses and hand-cannon. Autos too. However the problem with that in my eyes is that they included clear broken outliers to represent the entire archetype. Rose? Ace of Spades? Hawkmoon? Clearly the most broken guns in the game (somehow igneous pi untouched.) Elsie’s? Exotic 340s? Messenger? Also broken.
But instead of nerfing the outliers to bring them more in line you nerf the archetype as a whole? Rose, hawkmoon, and ace will virtually remain the best while other 140s are hurt because they don’t have what the outliers have. Pretty much same situation with 340s. Like when was the last time you got 2 bursted by a stars and shadow?
By nerfing archetypes instead of outliers you are just further inclining people to use the best options instead of making other guns more viable. I’m not typically the person to complain about nerfs but I just really dislike the way they go about it
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Edited by Evilless001: 10/1/2024 5:03:36 PMBungie is well aware that nerfing based on an outlier is a terrible practice for balancing, which is why they do it to shake up the meta.
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24 RepliesKinda like how ALL of bows, not just an archetype, ate the biggest nerf I can recall just because of monarque and wish ender
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9 RepliesThat’s because they buffed them. They like changing the meta every episode (season) regardless.
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3 RepliesAll 340 pulses kill the same. The issue isnt elsies or messenger, its Headseeker. HCs are in a fairly good spot in my opinion, 120s should be 2 head 1 body again and Percision Instrument needs to be taken down a peg. Ace, Hawkmoon and the like are not really outliers as they arent better than other top performing HCs.
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3 RepliesElsie is fine. You want to nerf some stuff then how about Khostov all around right along with Red Death Reformed. Khostov you don't even have to try. Polaris Lance has some ridiculous range along with Jade Rabbit. How about doing something about warlock and hunter prismatic in pvp with the ability spam and constant dodges with health and invisibility and specters. Or better yet do something about the ridiculous amounts of heavy and special in pvp that adds to the ability spam?
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2 Replies[quote] Like when was the last time you got 2 bursted by a stars and shadow? [/quote] It doesn’t have as good of stats as the endgame pulses, so it isn’t used as much as they are. It is fully capable of consistently two bursting though. The “outliers” should be better than the playlist gun.
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2 RepliesEdited by Kiro - 13: 9/29/2024 3:29:16 PMHe is right @Bungie. By nerfing all HC you are just making rose and ace required.
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Yep. It happened to 120 HC’s. Then Aggressive SMGs. Then it happened to legendary bows. Now it’s gonna happen to 140 HC’s, 340 Pulses, and 600 Autos. Where a handful of legendaries and exotics have significantly higher stats that pushes them into being overpowered. Then Bungie just nerfs the entire archetype. Anyone that disagrees, I challenge you to use a legendary bow or an aggressive SMG that isn’t Immortal or Tarrabah.
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Agreed
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1 ReplyMy only gripe is how PI was basically Dead Man’s Tale perk and it was “too broken” and now it’s on every single 120 Handcannons or Scout but DMT still doesn’t have it back…
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4 RepliesEdited by stinkych33Ze: 9/28/2024 6:17:10 PMSpeak your truth king 👏 Bows got gutted, but the only ones that were good were direct outliers. Namely Wish Ender that literally just deals more damage than other bows. Or Lemon, which also just deals more damage and gives the Lightweight movement buff. 120s got gutted, but Iggy was the only outlier. Imo, they need to nerf Rose’s aim assist, and they need to unnerf Ace’s range, but bring memento mori down to a 2 crit 1 body, and only 3 bullets. Hawkmoon is honestly fine. They also need to gut Elsie’s and Messenger’s stats. No reason for them to be that good.
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Completely agree and they have been doing this forever. They use power creep instead of making engaging content to sell product. Power creep is soo much easier than having enough talent to support the game
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3 RepliesEdited by Dopamine: 9/28/2024 9:08:39 PM[quote]The twab 2 days ago mentions archetypes that are apparently over preforming and a few of them are pulses and hand-cannon. Autos too. However the problem with that in my eyes is that they included clear broken outliers to represent the entire archetype. Rose? Ace of Spades? Hawkmoon? Clearly the most broken guns in the game (somehow igneous pi untouched.) Elsie’s? Exotic 340s? Messenger? Also broken. But instead of nerfing the outliers to bring them more in line you nerf the archetype as a whole? Rose, hawkmoon, and ace will virtually remain the best while other 140s are hurt because they don’t have what the outliers have. Pretty much same situation with 340s. Like when was the last time you got 2 bursted by a stars and shadow? By nerfing archetypes instead of outliers you are just further inclining people to use the best options instead of making other guns more viable. I’m not typically the person to complain about nerfs but I just really dislike the way they go about it[/quote] well said. though, there's something to be said about bungie's weapon design philosophy. it is clear that amongst weapons of the same frame there will be those that rise above the rest due to their stats and perk pools. bungie would want to decide if h_o_m_0_genizing (proper spelling is filtered?) stats is something they want to do. if you said there is some degree of cognitive dissonance between balancing philosophies at bungie, i would agree.
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My poor spare rations might be chalked.
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But remember: they don't use "usage data" to determine what to nerf. Bungie really likes that particular fairy tale.
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1 Replyanother fact that this company doesn't understand what to do with their game... constant nerves in a circle oh deadmasanger is too strong, in a year he needs more love lol!! that's why I stopped playing, because without a meta you're just bread for birds, what's the point when we have so many weapons but everyone only uses the same thing...
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1 ReplyEdited by GetSpaghett: 9/28/2024 5:32:37 PMThis is far from the first example of a game design sin I've been trying to preach that Bungie is guilty of multiple acts of. Attuning certain aspects of a game so that it is balanced around specific options or choices doesn't "fix" those aspects. All it does is punish you for choosing something other than those options. The +20% enemy hp to counterbalance elemental surge modifiers, exotics that "fix" underperforming things, an intentional artificial meta, and this too. These kind of decisions don't help the game. They only reduce viable options and perpetuate choice being only an illusion.
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Edited by eliteg: 9/28/2024 3:28:12 PMThis is a very good important point! It is possibly the stealthy reason that we don't have a variety of weapons viable in the game imo... .. [b]but not sure how you can handle it[/b].. Bungie has shown no deft hand (or capability at all) when it comes to doing localized nerfs/buffs/exclusions of a weapon for an activity.. I think also people miss out... for example Midnight Coup/Better Devils.. very fun very good 140s.. but all they bring in there is Rose/Hawkmoon/Ace.. I honestly feel people (most) would enjoy the game a lot more with this variety
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Edited by HaVoK308: 9/28/2024 11:05:50 PMA lot of people are using it?!?! Must need nerfed. That’s just lazy. But this is the way.
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25 RepliesEdited by FluffyDragonZ: 9/28/2024 3:14:17 PMSo what measures should be used to nerf those outliers? Please list some examples that can be talked through.
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5 RepliesIf they did that then there would be no reason to grind for the good ones. Everything would be the same, nothing would feel unique. Glad you're not a dev, the game would have another helldivers over nerf situation.
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What about buffs to get other archetypes up to par? Why is the worst archetype the baseline?
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i could understand this about 140s but there really arent that many farmable 340s out there and the ones that are are not far off in stats. 340s also needed an rpm nerf instead of a forgiveability nerf. make the gun kill in .73-.75 like its 450 counterpart thats much better than forcing people to use elsies/messenger because of their stability perk/headseeker combo.
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2 RepliesI think the only way to “balance” all the guns is to have them all share the same ttk. But idk how that would work or what kind of effect would truely do to either type of sandboxes. It might just not work. Idk.
