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6/27/2024 4:52:22 PM
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Actually no, the dialogue proceeding the mission actively discuss Zavala’s frustration with the lack of answers from the Traveler and what he sees as too little assistance. Zavala’s faith in the Traveler has been waning since the Red War, something that reached its apex in Witch Queen when it gave the Light to the Hive.
Though it’s amazing how you can read into that but not discern the difference between guilt and grief.
Zavala was separated from everyone else closer to the Witness’s influence than anyone else. He chose to make his stand at his home after refusing the Witness’s offer but is shaken in the aftermath by being shown a vision of him and his family reunited.
He doesn’t spend the entire mission crying, or retreating into a fantasy. At most I assume you’re referring to his goodbye to Safiyah upon mission completion, which seems like another instance of undermining grief.
At this point your unprompted tangential ramblings about LGBTQ+, Trump and your apparent insecurity about male vulnerability paint a clearer picture of your beliefs than your actual arguments.
If anything I believe that Ikora wasn’t shaken enough by her own experiences during the campaign. In fact, we don’t even learn that the Witness spoke to her at all until the raid lore. Crow, Zavala, Cayde and even Mara were allowed to show more emotion about what was going on around them.
Which seems to be a consequence of Ikora being mostly defined by her relationships to other characters than having her own actual character (Friend to Cayde, Student of Osiris…)
English
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Edited by AbsolutZeroGI: 6/27/2024 5:27:48 PMDude this is a video game, and I'm drawing parallels to other media where the original writers left or weren't available anymore and instead of telling a cohesive story, decided instead to pander. I have absolutely no idea what that has to do with male insecurity (I suspect you saw that phrase on Tumblr once and now you use it all the time to put people on the defensive about something they're not even talking about). The comparison is apt here, and both properties have been criticized by their own fans for it. Zavala did, in fact, turn into a lunatic after that mission and charged headlong and alone into danger, and his ghost did in fact have to sacrifice itself to save him, and the Zavala's lack of faith in the traveler started with his wife and kid going away, as per the season of the haunted. It got worse because of external factors, but that's definitely what started it. Keep your Tumblr talk on Tumblr please. I have no problems with gay or trans people, and I have several of both in my clan and I play with them every time I'm online. What I have a problem with is poor storytelling that leans on the fact that criticizing it in any way immediately draws dumb, overused buzzwords that take away from the actual context of the conversation. Their little love monologue being done over public radio at the beginning of a season that has nothing to do with either of them is pandering, plain and simple, and it's just like RWBY did it. It didn't work then, it doesn't work now, and pandering is for losers.
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[quote]Nightmare of Safiyah: You say you mourned our deaths, Zavala? Stood at our graves, cried out in prayer to your Traveler? Zavala: [stammers] For a long time... Nightmare of Safiyah: What good did it do? No Ghosts found us. Instead, the Traveler gave the Light to your enemies. Zavala: It's not that simple! Nightmare of Safiyah: It is that simple! That abandoner deserves your duty more than me. More than our son. It's why you left us both to die, alone. [/quote] Even in Haunted when his faith to the Traveler is called into question it’s specifically drawing on the events of Witch Queen and the Hive acquiring the Light. It’s not uniquely. tied to his family As well as that, the Nightmare of Safiyah is a weapon of Calus deployed to specifically break Zavala, it’s specifically dredging up ANY negative emotions it can to keep him off balance and stop him from severing it and loosening Calus’s hold on the Pyramid. Zavala’s initial grief over Hakim causing him to beg Targe to revive him wasn’t the beginning of his eroding faith in the Traveler, it’s just being used now because the fact that the Hive were more worthy of the Light than Hakim paints a worse picture of the Traveler. [quote]I have no problems with gay or trans people, and I have several of both in my clan and I play with them every time I'm online.[/quote] Did… did you just pull the ‘I have -insert minority here- friends’ cards while trying to defend yourself? We’re arguing about the consistency and quality of writing of Zavala’s character here, it has nothing to do with whatever culture war rubbish you’re trying to drag into the mix.
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Edited by AbsolutZeroGI: 6/27/2024 6:00:04 PM[quote][quote]Nightmare of Safiyah: You say you mourned our deaths, Zavala? Stood at our graves, cried out in prayer to your Traveler? Zavala: [stammers] For a long time... Nightmare of Safiyah: What good did it do? No Ghosts found us. Instead, the Traveler gave the Light to your enemies. Zavala: It's not that simple! Nightmare of Safiyah: It is that simple! That abandoner deserves your duty more than me. More than our son. It's why you left us both to die, alone. [/quote] Even in Haunted when his faith to the Traveler is called into question it’s specifically drawing on the events of Witch Queen and the Hive acquiring the Light. It’s not uniquely. tied to his family As well as that, the Nightmare of Safiyah is a weapon of Calus deployed to specifically break Zavala, it’s specifically dredging up ANY negative emotions it can to keep him off balance and stop him from severing it and loosening Calus’s hold on the Pyramid. Zavala’s initial grief over Hakim causing him to beg Targe to revive him wasn’t the beginning of his eroding faith in the Traveler, it’s just being used now because the fact that the Hive were more worthy of the Light than Hakim paints a worse picture of the Traveler. [quote]I have no problems with gay or trans people, and I have several of both in my clan and I play with them every time I'm online.[/quote] Did… did you just pull the ‘I have -insert minority here- friends’ cards while trying to defend yourself? We’re arguing about the consistency and quality of writing of Zavala’s character here, it has nothing to do with whatever culture war rubbish you’re trying to drag into the mix.[/quote] You're the one using Tumblr words to a stranger on the Internet you don't know. Me adding relevant context to my daily experience is a perfectly acceptable response to a stranger misconstruing my personal life and belief system. If you don't like that response, stop making wholesale assumptions about people you don't know and people will stop responding with how the thing you claim they hate is actually a daily part of their lives and how that thing wouldn't be a part of their daily lives if they hated it. Anyway, If the whole Hakim thing didn't happen, or if Zavala had processed it prior to the witch queen, the hive getting the light wouldn't have summoned up those feelings to begin with. The light chose not to revive his kid, and now he calls into question everything it does. That means all instances of him questioning his God revolves around that one central premise, given that he did not question his God previously. Even so, the act of turning it from a nightmare into a memory was supposed to be him conquering his nightmare, as that was the allegorical parallel being drawn by the story. "Coming to terms so that Calus doesn't have a hold on you anymore" was a central storytelling mechanic in that season that every other character has adhered to except Zavala.
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FelspringI just want conditional man - old
Actually it probably would have still happened as if Zavala got over hakim’s death the season of the haunted would have brought stronger emotions as the the nightmare of his own wife he couldn’t save mocks him over his traveler not bringing back his son -
[quote]Actually it probably would have still happened as if Zavala got over hakim’s death the season of the haunted would have brought stronger emotions as the the nightmare of his own wife he couldn’t save mocks him over his traveler not bringing back his son[/quote] If he's still losing his mind at stuff like that, it means he didn't properly process anything. That's what properly process means, it means he's over it. That's a natural part of grief, to eventually get passed it and continue with your life. It's exceptionally unbelievable that this man grieved his dead son continuously for hundreds of years and the entire story of D2 is just him progressively losing it over and over again because of it. How the hell did a guy like that end up as leader of the vanguard? It's a terrible story for a character who could've had a lot better
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Felspring
I just want conditional man - old
Frankly I think he did process it but it was then used against him like a weapon but that’s just my thoughts. -
Edited by AbsolutZeroGI: 7/1/2024 3:42:24 AM[quote]Frankly I think he did process it but it was then used against him like a weapon but that’s just my thoughts.[/quote] If a person has processed it, it can't be used against them as a weapon. As an example. My mom died a while back. I've processed this. Someone bringing it up doesn't bother me. Because I've processed it. In fact, you started this conversation by saying "I swear people in this community have never lost anything" (paraphrased, of course). Walked right by it. Didn't bother me. Processing one's emotions. Powerful stuff. Zavala experienced no character growth in this area. All any being needs to do is bring up and it reduces Zavala to an ineffective blob of sadness. That's the opposite of "processing" a trauma.
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Felspring
I just want conditional man - old
My final thing, no offense is intended, but what if your mother’s ghostly copy came back and said you were the reason she died. Wouldn’t you get upset at least a bit? And it wouldn’t stop always nagging at you. -
[quote]My final thing, no offense is intended, but what if your mother’s ghostly copy came back and said you were the reason she died. Wouldn’t you get upset at least a bit? And it wouldn’t stop always nagging at you.[/quote] The first time? Yes, until I was told that a bad guy was doing it to manipulate my emotions (which Zavala was specially told by Eris Morn), and then, while probably a little unnerving, it wouldn't anymore because I have an IQ slightly higher than a citrus fruit and understand that [b][i]it's not real[/i][/b]. The second time? No, because it's literally the same trick used again years later and I'm now experienced enough to know that my enemies can play those types of mind games. However, for the sake of argument, my mom died from cancer, her 4th in 10 years, and she had decided to not get treatment and just let it slide. A 3-1 all time record vs cancer ain't bad. Clearly, she can't blame me for that and it wouldn't make sense for her to. Now, if I had taken her out to a remote place where she was killed by bandits, then maybe the first attempt might hit me harder since there is a little evidence that I was at least partially responsible for it happening. EVEN SO, once I was informed that it was a bad guy conjuring up a fake ghost of my mother specifically to manipulate me, the trick would cease to work, however realistic it was and however much it was based on my brain. It's a suspension of disbelief that Zavala lets it affect him as much as it does, as there is a clear and concise explanation for why it's there and also that it's not real. The fact that he falls for it friggin TWICE is insane.
