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Edited by AbsolutZeroGI:
6/27/2024 6:59:50 AM
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[quote]Funny how nobody batted an eye when Zavala spoke with the Nightmare of his wife in Haunted, or the sheer -blam!- tension between Zavala and Caiatl.
Funny how nobody cries about Drifter being in a weird relationship with Eris.
Funny how nobody batted an eye when Sjur Eido (A Female) was made known to be Mara Sovs lover, 7 years ago.
Funny how we've known Ana Bray is a lesbian for some 6 years now and nobody ever cries about it.
Hell, Devrim has been gay since D2 released.
This game has had LGBT characters forever, you're just crying about it because they're the focus for once. Cry harder bigots.[/quote]
Dude there were several threads complaining about Zavala in TFS going back to a thing that he allegedly put to bed only for it to do the exact same thing it did last time.
Bungie can't write a love story, straight or gay. Just because you weren't paying attention doesn't mean people didn't complain about it.
And they didn't put 5 minute monologues of literally ANYONE else's romance in the helm and made you sit there and listen to it to get a seal (which you have to do for the seasonal seal). If you wanted to skip the Zavala scenes during the nightmare season, you absolutely could and it was fine.
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[quote]Dude there were several threads complaining about Zavala in TFS going back to a thing that he allegedly put to bed only for it to do the exact same thing it did last time. [/quote] Yeah you see that’s because some people are stupid. Haunted was about Zavala feeling guilty for causing the death of his son. People don’t seem to understand that he didn’t just forget his feelings for his family. In fact, I’d argue losing Safiyah a second time after converting her Nightmare to a Memory probably did more to reopen that wound than anything else. [quote]And they didn't put 5 minute monologues of literally ANYONE else's romance in the helm and made you sit there and listen to it to get a seal (which you have to do for the seasonal seal). If you wanted to skip the Zavala scenes during the nightmare season, you absolutely could and it was fine.[/quote] You couldn’t, actually. To progress the missions you had to sit around and wait for the character dialogue to finish.
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[quote][quote]Dude there were several threads complaining about Zavala in TFS going back to a thing that he allegedly put to bed only for it to do the exact same thing it did last time. [/quote] Yeah you see that’s because some people are stupid. Haunted was about Zavala feeling guilty for causing the death of his son. People don’t seem to understand that he didn’t just forget his feelings for his family. In fact, I’d argue losing Safiyah a second time after converting her Nightmare to a Memory probably did more to reopen that wound than anything else. [quote]And they didn't put 5 minute monologues of literally ANYONE else's romance in the helm and made you sit there and listen to it to get a seal (which you have to do for the seasonal seal). If you wanted to skip the Zavala scenes during the nightmare season, you absolutely could and it was fine.[/quote] You couldn’t, actually. To progress the missions you had to sit around and wait for the character dialogue to finish.[/quote] The whole point of the haunted stuff was that he put it to bed and moved on. It came back in TFS and it's like Haunted never happened. And in both TFS and Haunted, Zavala cut scenes were either skippable or less than a minute. And none of the TFS stuff took place at the helm where you can literally do nothing but sit there and wait.
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Except it’s not. You don’t just get over grief. The Nightmares specifically targeted fears or insecurities within those they were bonded to. Zavala’s wears the face of his wife and blames him for the death of Hakim because he felt he should be blamed, it’s why he left her. That has nothing to do with Zavala being presented with the chance to have his family back. I’m beginning to think half of these people on these forums have never lost someone close to them. Grief isn’t something you ever fully get over. Which is irrelevant anyways because he refused the offer.
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Edited by AbsolutZeroGI: 6/27/2024 4:03:57 PM[quote]Except it’s not. You don’t just get over grief. The Nightmares specifically targeted fears or insecurities within those they were bonded to. Zavala’s wears the face of his wife and blames him for the death of Hakim because he felt he should be blamed, it’s why he left her. That has nothing to do with Zavala being presented with the chance to have his family back. I’m beginning to think half of these people on these forums have never lost someone close to them. Grief isn’t something you ever fully get over. Which is irrelevant anyways because he refused the offer.[/quote] The way haunted ended made it seem like he came to terms with it, and bringing it back up and seeing him make, if anything, the opposite of progress was a huge detriment for his character and also very poor storytelling. Like they couldn't think of a second thing for him to be insecure about. Just like Saint and Osiris apparently no longer having any other interests or cares in the world outside each other now, as all their conversations are about how gay they are and not, y'know, about the game world we're currently in. I care about round 2 with Zavala's divorced wife as much as I care about Osiris and Saint saying things on a public radio channel that they should be saying privately. That is to say not at all. If it were a straight couple, I'd still call it cringe. They just injected that crap right into a Vex and AI storyline for no reason dude. Back to Zavala, it's been centuries. And he knows he's in the witness and that none of it is real. Shattering the illusion that he's a strong leader every time they need some story friction is, has been, and will always be lame. Just like putting incoherent cooing on the public radio in a season about Vex and AI is lame. It's all lame, super forced, and not at all relatable. It's just Bungie saying "see? Look at our gay characters being gay. We're so woke." And you don't know literally any human person in this thread on a personal level, so making wide sweeping assumptions about their lives makes you sound like a d*ck.
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I’d watch the ending of Haunted again. If Zavala has ‘gotten over’ his family, why would he act sorrowful when the Memory of Safiyah leaves? There’s also the fact his family isn’t the focus of his strain within the DLC and he DOES have a second ‘insecurity’. When he comes face to face with the Witness, does it tempt him with his family again? No, it attacks his lack of faith in the Traveler by attempting to get him to sympathise with the Precursors within it. That they have both been abandoned by the Traveler. Zavala was shown his family whole again, something that puts him on the back foot. Communications from the Traveler seemingly asking the Guardians to sacrifice their lives for it and everyone ignoring his suggestion because they believe he’s too unstable rile him up until he decides that he’s had enough and pushes forward in a suicidal fashion, determined to give his life if he has to There’s also the fact that despite being shaken Zavala still carries on. He correctly deduces that the Statues are attempting to communicate because they want to help, a lead no one was willing to follow up on until Zavala went AWOL. He actively chose to learn Stasis to stay in the fight and led the Coalition forces forces against the Witness. Hell, even without the light he still fought with the others to the ritual site. And a final note, because you make a point of the passage of time. Zavala still visits the graves of both Safiyah and Hakim, as well as Safiyah’s descendants. It’s not something he’s every forgotten or cut himself off from.
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Edited by AbsolutZeroGI: 6/27/2024 4:38:05 PM[quote]I’d watch the ending of Haunted again. If Zavala has ‘gotten over’ his family, why would he act sorrowful when the Memory of Safiyah leaves? There’s also the fact his family isn’t the focus of his strain within the DLC and he DOES have a second ‘insecurity’. When he comes face to face with the Witness, does it tempt him with his family again? No, it attacks his lack of faith in the Traveler by attempting to get him to sympathise with the Precursors within it. That they have both been abandoned by the Traveler. Zavala was shown his family whole again, something that puts him on the back foot. Communications from the Traveler seemingly asking the Guardians to sacrifice their lives for it and everyone ignoring his suggestion because they believe he’s too unstable rile him up until he decides that he’s had enough and pushes forward in a suicidal fashion, determined to give his life if he has to There’s also the fact that despite being shaken Zavala still carries on. He correctly deduces that the Statues are attempting to communicate because they want to help, a lead no one was willing to follow up on until Zavala went AWOL. He actively chose to learn Stasis to stay in the fight and led the Coalition forces forces against the Witness. Hell, even without the light he still fought with the others to the ritual site. And a final note, because you make a point of the passage of time. Zavala still visits the graves of both Safiyah and Hakim, as well as Safiyah’s descendants. It’s not something he’s every forgotten or cut himself off from.[/quote] Yes, it did. The whole reason Zavala questions the Traveler is because of his former family, so when the Witness says it also questioned the traveler, it was pulling on that string. I'm referring to the 25 minute mission where home boy was wedged between two trees crying because the witness made that stupid cabin, and how Zavala completely ignored everything going on around him to dip back into a fantasy, again, for the second time. They already told that story and it did not land telling it a second time. Zavala does not carry on, he becomes a lunatic, running headlong into danger and getting his ghost unnecessarily killed. Then he blends into the background until giving a speech before the final fight that makes no sense because Bungie has made it clear that he never gets over or deals with anything, ever. They turned him into a sniveling weakling, and then tried to just coin flip him at the end and it sucked. And I'm not the only person who thinks so. It's simply bad writing. The Bungie team went back to old ideas instead of writing new ones, which they do all the time because the group writing now isn't the same group that wrote the game back in the day. Rooster Teeth's RWBY did the same thing. Started out a cool show about people with powers kicking @ss. Super sweet fight scenes. Then the main writer and creator passed away, and the replacement squad just shoved a bunch of gay stuff (and Trump hating) into it and hoped nobody would notice that the main story was in complete shambles. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a trump fan, but -blam!- am I sick of seeing allegories him in sci Fi fantasy. Now rooster teeth is dead, because their constantly injecting off topic stuff into their "this doesn't take place in reality" content and people got tired of it. Same applies here. We're in a storyline with Failsafe and the Vex, why are we listening to this old man and this gay robot sing love songs at each other for 5 minutes in the helm? Do a "season of the gay" if you want to do that, cuz then it'll make sense.
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[quote]I’d watch the ending of Haunted again. If Zavala has ‘gotten over’ his family, why would he act sorrowful when the Memory of Safiyah leaves? There’s also the fact his family isn’t the focus of his strain within the DLC and he DOES have a second ‘insecurity’. When he comes face to face with the Witness, does it tempt him with his family again? No, it attacks his lack of faith in the Traveler by attempting to get him to sympathise with the Precursors within it. That they have both been abandoned by the Traveler. Zavala was shown his family whole again, something that puts him on the back foot. Communications from the Traveler seemingly asking the Guardians to sacrifice their lives for it and everyone ignoring his suggestion because they believe he’s too unstable rile him up until he decides that he’s had enough and pushes forward in a suicidal fashion, determined to give his life if he has to There’s also the fact that despite being shaken Zavala still carries on. He correctly deduces that the Statues are attempting to communicate because they want to help, a lead no one was willing to follow up on until Zavala went AWOL. He actively chose to learn Stasis to stay in the fight and led the Coalition forces forces against the Witness. Hell, even without the light he still fought with the others to the ritual site. And a final note, because you make a point of the passage of time. Zavala still visits the graves of both Safiyah and Hakim, as well as Safiyah’s descendants. It’s not something he’s every forgotten or cut himself off from.[/quote] Yes, it did. The whole reason Zavala questions the Traveler is because of his former family, so when the Witness says it also questioned the traveler, it was pulling on that string. I'm referring to the 25 minute mission where home boy was wedged between two trees crying because the witness made that stupid cabin, and how Zavala completely ignored everything going on around him to dip back into a fantasy, again, for the second time. They already told that story and it did not land telling it a second time. Zavala does not carry on, he becomes a lunatic, running headlong into danger and getting his ghost unnecessarily killed. Then he blends into the background until giving a speech before the final fight that makes no sense because Bungie has made it clear that he never gets over or deals with anything, ever. They turned him into a sniveling weakling, and then tried to just coin flip him at the end and it sucked. And I'm not the only person who thinks so. It's simply bad writing. The Bungie team went back to old ideas instead of writing new ones, which they do all the time because the group writing now isn't the same group that wrote the game back in the day. Rooster Teeth's RWBY did the same thing. Started out a bad-blam!- show about people with powers kicking @ss. Then the main writer and creator passed away, and the replacement squad just shoved a bunch of gay stuff (and Trump hating) into it and hoped nobody would notice that the main story was in complete shambles. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a trump fan, but -blam!- am I sick of seeing him in sci Fi fantasy. Now rooster teeth is dead, because their constantly injecting off topic stuff into their "this doesn't take place in reality" content and people got tired of it. Same applies here. We're in a storyline with Failsafe and the Vex, why are we listening to this old man and this gay robot sing love songs at each other for 5 minutes in the helm? Do a "season of the gay" if you want to do that, cuz then it'll make sense.
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Actually no, the dialogue proceeding the mission actively discuss Zavala’s frustration with the lack of answers from the Traveler and what he sees as too little assistance. Zavala’s faith in the Traveler has been waning since the Red War, something that reached its apex in Witch Queen when it gave the Light to the Hive. Though it’s amazing how you can read into that but not discern the difference between guilt and grief. Zavala was separated from everyone else closer to the Witness’s influence than anyone else. He chose to make his stand at his home after refusing the Witness’s offer but is shaken in the aftermath by being shown a vision of him and his family reunited. He doesn’t spend the entire mission crying, or retreating into a fantasy. At most I assume you’re referring to his goodbye to Safiyah upon mission completion, which seems like another instance of undermining grief. At this point your unprompted tangential ramblings about LGBTQ+, Trump and your apparent insecurity about male vulnerability paint a clearer picture of your beliefs than your actual arguments. If anything I believe that Ikora wasn’t shaken enough by her own experiences during the campaign. In fact, we don’t even learn that the Witness spoke to her at all until the raid lore. Crow, Zavala, Cayde and even Mara were allowed to show more emotion about what was going on around them. Which seems to be a consequence of Ikora being mostly defined by her relationships to other characters than having her own actual character (Friend to Cayde, Student of Osiris…)
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Edited by AbsolutZeroGI: 6/27/2024 5:27:48 PMDude this is a video game, and I'm drawing parallels to other media where the original writers left or weren't available anymore and instead of telling a cohesive story, decided instead to pander. I have absolutely no idea what that has to do with male insecurity (I suspect you saw that phrase on Tumblr once and now you use it all the time to put people on the defensive about something they're not even talking about). The comparison is apt here, and both properties have been criticized by their own fans for it. Zavala did, in fact, turn into a lunatic after that mission and charged headlong and alone into danger, and his ghost did in fact have to sacrifice itself to save him, and the Zavala's lack of faith in the traveler started with his wife and kid going away, as per the season of the haunted. It got worse because of external factors, but that's definitely what started it. Keep your Tumblr talk on Tumblr please. I have no problems with gay or trans people, and I have several of both in my clan and I play with them every time I'm online. What I have a problem with is poor storytelling that leans on the fact that criticizing it in any way immediately draws dumb, overused buzzwords that take away from the actual context of the conversation. Their little love monologue being done over public radio at the beginning of a season that has nothing to do with either of them is pandering, plain and simple, and it's just like RWBY did it. It didn't work then, it doesn't work now, and pandering is for losers.
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[quote]Nightmare of Safiyah: You say you mourned our deaths, Zavala? Stood at our graves, cried out in prayer to your Traveler? Zavala: [stammers] For a long time... Nightmare of Safiyah: What good did it do? No Ghosts found us. Instead, the Traveler gave the Light to your enemies. Zavala: It's not that simple! Nightmare of Safiyah: It is that simple! That abandoner deserves your duty more than me. More than our son. It's why you left us both to die, alone. [/quote] Even in Haunted when his faith to the Traveler is called into question it’s specifically drawing on the events of Witch Queen and the Hive acquiring the Light. It’s not uniquely. tied to his family As well as that, the Nightmare of Safiyah is a weapon of Calus deployed to specifically break Zavala, it’s specifically dredging up ANY negative emotions it can to keep him off balance and stop him from severing it and loosening Calus’s hold on the Pyramid. Zavala’s initial grief over Hakim causing him to beg Targe to revive him wasn’t the beginning of his eroding faith in the Traveler, it’s just being used now because the fact that the Hive were more worthy of the Light than Hakim paints a worse picture of the Traveler. [quote]I have no problems with gay or trans people, and I have several of both in my clan and I play with them every time I'm online.[/quote] Did… did you just pull the ‘I have -insert minority here- friends’ cards while trying to defend yourself? We’re arguing about the consistency and quality of writing of Zavala’s character here, it has nothing to do with whatever culture war rubbish you’re trying to drag into the mix.
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Edited by AbsolutZeroGI: 6/27/2024 6:00:04 PM[quote][quote]Nightmare of Safiyah: You say you mourned our deaths, Zavala? Stood at our graves, cried out in prayer to your Traveler? Zavala: [stammers] For a long time... Nightmare of Safiyah: What good did it do? No Ghosts found us. Instead, the Traveler gave the Light to your enemies. Zavala: It's not that simple! Nightmare of Safiyah: It is that simple! That abandoner deserves your duty more than me. More than our son. It's why you left us both to die, alone. [/quote] Even in Haunted when his faith to the Traveler is called into question it’s specifically drawing on the events of Witch Queen and the Hive acquiring the Light. It’s not uniquely. tied to his family As well as that, the Nightmare of Safiyah is a weapon of Calus deployed to specifically break Zavala, it’s specifically dredging up ANY negative emotions it can to keep him off balance and stop him from severing it and loosening Calus’s hold on the Pyramid. Zavala’s initial grief over Hakim causing him to beg Targe to revive him wasn’t the beginning of his eroding faith in the Traveler, it’s just being used now because the fact that the Hive were more worthy of the Light than Hakim paints a worse picture of the Traveler. [quote]I have no problems with gay or trans people, and I have several of both in my clan and I play with them every time I'm online.[/quote] Did… did you just pull the ‘I have -insert minority here- friends’ cards while trying to defend yourself? We’re arguing about the consistency and quality of writing of Zavala’s character here, it has nothing to do with whatever culture war rubbish you’re trying to drag into the mix.[/quote] You're the one using Tumblr words to a stranger on the Internet you don't know. Me adding relevant context to my daily experience is a perfectly acceptable response to a stranger misconstruing my personal life and belief system. If you don't like that response, stop making wholesale assumptions about people you don't know and people will stop responding with how the thing you claim they hate is actually a daily part of their lives and how that thing wouldn't be a part of their daily lives if they hated it. Anyway, If the whole Hakim thing didn't happen, or if Zavala had processed it prior to the witch queen, the hive getting the light wouldn't have summoned up those feelings to begin with. The light chose not to revive his kid, and now he calls into question everything it does. That means all instances of him questioning his God revolves around that one central premise, given that he did not question his God previously. Even so, the act of turning it from a nightmare into a memory was supposed to be him conquering his nightmare, as that was the allegorical parallel being drawn by the story. "Coming to terms so that Calus doesn't have a hold on you anymore" was a central storytelling mechanic in that season that every other character has adhered to except Zavala.
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FelspringI just want conditional man - old
Actually it probably would have still happened as if Zavala got over hakim’s death the season of the haunted would have brought stronger emotions as the the nightmare of his own wife he couldn’t save mocks him over his traveler not bringing back his son -
[quote]Actually it probably would have still happened as if Zavala got over hakim’s death the season of the haunted would have brought stronger emotions as the the nightmare of his own wife he couldn’t save mocks him over his traveler not bringing back his son[/quote] If he's still losing his mind at stuff like that, it means he didn't properly process anything. That's what properly process means, it means he's over it. That's a natural part of grief, to eventually get passed it and continue with your life. It's exceptionally unbelievable that this man grieved his dead son continuously for hundreds of years and the entire story of D2 is just him progressively losing it over and over again because of it. How the hell did a guy like that end up as leader of the vanguard? It's a terrible story for a character who could've had a lot better
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Felspring
I just want conditional man - old
Frankly I think he did process it but it was then used against him like a weapon but that’s just my thoughts. -
Edited by AbsolutZeroGI: 7/1/2024 3:42:24 AM[quote]Frankly I think he did process it but it was then used against him like a weapon but that’s just my thoughts.[/quote] If a person has processed it, it can't be used against them as a weapon. As an example. My mom died a while back. I've processed this. Someone bringing it up doesn't bother me. Because I've processed it. In fact, you started this conversation by saying "I swear people in this community have never lost anything" (paraphrased, of course). Walked right by it. Didn't bother me. Processing one's emotions. Powerful stuff. Zavala experienced no character growth in this area. All any being needs to do is bring up and it reduces Zavala to an ineffective blob of sadness. That's the opposite of "processing" a trauma.
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Felspring
I just want conditional man - old
My final thing, no offense is intended, but what if your mother’s ghostly copy came back and said you were the reason she died. Wouldn’t you get upset at least a bit? And it wouldn’t stop always nagging at you. -
[quote]My final thing, no offense is intended, but what if your mother’s ghostly copy came back and said you were the reason she died. Wouldn’t you get upset at least a bit? And it wouldn’t stop always nagging at you.[/quote] The first time? Yes, until I was told that a bad guy was doing it to manipulate my emotions (which Zavala was specially told by Eris Morn), and then, while probably a little unnerving, it wouldn't anymore because I have an IQ slightly higher than a citrus fruit and understand that [b][i]it's not real[/i][/b]. The second time? No, because it's literally the same trick used again years later and I'm now experienced enough to know that my enemies can play those types of mind games. However, for the sake of argument, my mom died from cancer, her 4th in 10 years, and she had decided to not get treatment and just let it slide. A 3-1 all time record vs cancer ain't bad. Clearly, she can't blame me for that and it wouldn't make sense for her to. Now, if I had taken her out to a remote place where she was killed by bandits, then maybe the first attempt might hit me harder since there is a little evidence that I was at least partially responsible for it happening. EVEN SO, once I was informed that it was a bad guy conjuring up a fake ghost of my mother specifically to manipulate me, the trick would cease to work, however realistic it was and however much it was based on my brain. It's a suspension of disbelief that Zavala lets it affect him as much as it does, as there is a clear and concise explanation for why it's there and also that it's not real. The fact that he falls for it friggin TWICE is insane.
