Idk.. I would like to keep the -5. There was a time where I was like some people that wouldn't attempt raids. Didn't bother trying. Than I stopped being like that & my experience has improved tenfold. Making things easier doesn't make people better players. However.. I think a fair middle ground would be to keep the -5 for the new raid and whatever the rotator is for the week. The rest shouldn't have the -5.

I've spoken on this topic a great number of times over the last year so I won't drop the entirety of it here again, but the short summary version is that not only are you right here, but it needs to be pushed well beyond just undoing normal raids/dungeons, but everything that changed prior to Lightfall. Removal of the ability of players to use power level to overlevel content to make things easier is a very lackluster way to achieve "difficulty" in this day and age of the game. It turned the endgame into a tedious slog that people no longer enjoyed to play, but would just play once for the respective triumph and then never touch again. Not only this, but it removed one of the largest player retention tools the game had in place, which was the artifact XP grind, of which everyone who played was at least getting a fill of. Power level on the artifact stopped mattering in the only activities where players actually used it, and as a result, players engaged with the game a whole lot less than before. And for what reason? Is it such a bad thing that Johnny Casual was able to complete a master raid or dungeon by spending the time to grind out power level to overcome some skill deficiencies? Tell me how this affects YOU at all? With the old system, if you wanted that negative power experience, you could still get it by selecting to underequip yourself. You used GoS statistics, but really you should have just used the global raid statistics as it is so much more telling here. Last week there were ~82,000 raid instances cleared which while a respectable number, is hardly comparable to even more recent highs such as the week before the expansion launch (~147,000), or even those of week 2 of previous expansion launches (~239,000 - Beyond Light, ~189,000 - Witch Queen, ~409,000 - Lightfall). The writing is as clear as day here, there are fewer people raiding and I would imagine the same for dungeons as well. So yes, acknowledging that players are not satisfied with the changes is a good first step and removing the surges is also a good look to resolve as you mentioned, half of the problem. But there is so much more that needs to be done, and not just for normal raids / dungeons. IMO, I think things need to go back to an adjusted version of pre-Lightfall where Normal is allowed to go back to full +20 in/out, and then move Master from -20 to +0. Then just add contest mode as an optional difficulty with cosmetics behind it. The game doesn't need more elitists gatekeeping the endgame, it needs more players to get involved in it to build long term player retention, otherwise the game is going right back to pre-TFS #s in the next few weeks.

So we don't get surges anymore, are they increasing our damage to compensate? The whole point of the surges was because they added the -5 power

Then nerf prismatic into the ground That’s what your asking People always moan whine and complain that all they do is nerf guardians So this time they gave us insane buffs with prismatic, exotic class items etc… And they SLIGHTLY and I mean SLIGHTLY adjusted the power creep through surges and -5 The cry baby tantrums have already removed the surges Now you want the very minimal -5 gone What does that leave? Massive nerfs to abilities, exotic intrinsic perks, and prismatic. Thats what your asking for But you’re so full of your own self righteous holy quest you can’t see past your own nose.

The -5 is what’s making me not want to do raids, other than pantheon I haven’t done raid since crota & I still need the scout from that to craft I wanna learn the new salvation’s edge cuz the armor and SMG but I’m holding off

someone clearly never touched 390 raids in d1

I 100% agree with the -5 being a problem. But people not doing GoS pinnacle is probably because mid maxing pinnacles matter way less with the recent power changes.

Let's go a step further and let them overlevel everything. Make it a joke again.

If they where -10+ I'd maybe agree. I've written like 10 different things in this that all sound elitist as hell but it's -5 my guy. Most activity's aren't power level active anyway so you aren't doing over level damage anyway. -5 is the bare minimum over level for enemy's and they go down in just as many hits. Summed up? Get good because it isn't hard to beat you are just bad.

Completely disagree and I hope Bungie doesn’t listen to this very fringe sect of the community. I want there to be a difference in difficulty between raids and dungeons compared to a strike. I don’t want raid encounters to be comparable to a gambit boss fight. I want the enemy AI to be more competent than a new born baby. I want the enemies to be able to fight back and win if half the team is throwing and being carried.

Did..did you just use Garden of Salvation as a stat? No one likes Garden. Your statistics are biased.

Does minus 5 make that much of a difference? Personally, I thought it was fine, but maybe I’m missing something on this case in particular.