Ok, if you want to read some crap about my thoughts on autos just look in the spoiler below. I will be putting a "too long; didn't read" just above the spoiler to give you the gist. The tl;Dr is out of order with how I wrote my post so bear with that issue for me please. Tl;dr: Their range is too similar to handcannons to put out so much lower damage. Their range is too much lower for pulses to put out similar damage. Recoil cripples their effectiveness as well as efficiency. Smgs becoming worthless due to an auto buff is possible but smgs currently out perform autos because they DON'T get buffed; some buffs to improve smgs as a whole would actually be beneficial because the only ones really being used are the exotics, recluse, and any of them with surrounded...which is a whopping 1 of them. Side arms could definitely be improved as well. In PvP a recoil reduction, flinch control improvement, and flinch dealt over time improvement would be beneficial as ttk is fine, just the general feel of them is annoying to work with. Give 450s some of their old range back, preferably 32+ meters vs their 28 meters and below. Oh, and buff auto damage by 15% or more in pve, because they undeniably suck. Keep in mind I state most of this from a pve perspective except for when I specifically state pvp. Autos need something different in PvP over damage. [spoiler]Why do I spam this? Why do I seem to ask the same thing every single time? Why is the second question the same as the first just with less insulting wording? Because I can waste my time as I choose. It's common to see the "buff scouts," "buff auto rifle" posts on the forums (with over 50% of the auto ones from me) and I see a consistent flow of positive feedback whenever I make the posts or see others make them. I'm not perfect and my numbers aren't always right, but I'd see this consistent approval as reason enough to buff them. There are people who disagree and some of them I can agree with in certain regards and I'd like to try and aid people's worry if possible. Worries about smgs is something common I see commonly as a counter argument. Autos have the advantage in range and giving them a damage buff could potentially cripple smgs. It's not illogical or incorrect to state this. What's important to note, however, is that the inverse effect is currently taking place. Smgs out damage autos so much that they render autos useless. Their effective range is lower, but the dps is so much greater that the range deficit doesn't matter. Autos receiving a 15-20% buff in pve wouldn't be the end of smgs because they still spend a larger amount of time shooting than smgs do to get full damage. And even if it ends up being too much for autos, they can always tweak smgs as well. I don't understand why people are so fast to deny a buff to autos when smgs could be improved as well. Most pve builds surrounding smgs typically just use the exotics or recluse anyways, so giving them some help isn't exactly a bad idea. Same with side arms. Next would be skill. I think this is the most ridiculous of the arguments I've come across so far. As to what to say to this...im not quite sure. I don't think having to constantly track a target is any easier than just following them and pulling the trigger when the reticle lines up with them especially when we have to factor in recoil and damage. To be perfectly honest I really don't want to talk about this because skill is more opinion than fact in Destiny. There are a lot of things that are supposed to be "hard to use" that are actually consistently more easy to use. I don't think I have to list what because the PvP meta speaks for itself, but I also don't think that determining a weapons ability by its "skill rating" is something very fair for balance. In PvP, ok to a degree, but the top meta weapons are always the easiest and unsurprisingly it's always the weapons people claim are "hard to use," besides shotguns of course. Autos vs handcannons. I think it's common that people like to compare the two, I know I do. I think it's justifiably done because of the effective range and purpose. Autos are meant to kill trash mobs at medium to close range and so are handcannons. Side arms and smgs have the exact same role as well. Smgs are able to put out the same damage as side arms...but autos aren't allowed to put out the same or even similar damage as handcannons. With how smgs work and how side arms work, smgs are more popular because they both excel at obliterating health bars, but smgs do it easier because of how many bullets they put out at insane speeds, but side arms can put down more trash mobs efficiently which makes them more reliable in that regard. Autos put out way more bullets than handcannons, but unlike with smgs or side arms, the difference in damage is vaster. Autos take much longer to kill trash mobs than handcannons and they don't make up for it over time either. Handcannons can instantly kill things like acolyte, vandals, and other enemies of that type, where as it might take autos close to their PvP ttk in bullets to just to finish them off, of course it depends on the light of the enemy. Handcannons put out so much more damage instantly and over time that autos just can't keep up. Autos shaking like they do also cripples damage potential which hurts them even more. Something like a handcannon in pve, is typically easier to kill targets with not just due to the damage but how they fulfill their damage requirements as well. Look, pull the trigger and dead vs track them, hold the trigger and wait. One naturally takes longer while also putting out lower values in terms of damage. Perfect accuracy is something much easier to obtain with a handcannon than with an auto because of how overkill handcannons are and how much less time you have to spend killing a target, meaning you have to spend less time being accurate. I'm not a handcannon hater, I just think people vastly over sell the difficulty handcannons have. In PvP it's different but even then not by much. Fyi I have more kills with handcannons than any other primary, I like them the most but I get bored of only using them. Autos vs pulse rifles. Some people like to compare autos and pulses over handcannons because they are closer in design. I don't disagree except for with how different range is. A pulse puts out pretty similar damage to autos in pve, only they have burst potential and much more range under their belt. I think pulses actually do more damage per bullet, just that the difference in rpm allows autos to beat them in extended dps time frames which is how it should be against handcannons. This gives pulses similar capabilities to handcannons with single trigger pull kills, but they also are effective at ranges on average between 35-40 meters. Autos on average can get around 29 meters of range as 720s can get 26 meters (scope plays a big role in their range with a range finder and ricochet round valakadyn only hitting at 22 where as my misfit with a long zoom and ricochet rounds hits at 30, but you'll never actually hit targets consistently at that range), 600s average 30, 450s average 27 and 360s can average around 34 (but can't actually shoot that far accurately on console, with the right roll and scope they can hit upwards of 37) and this is without fall off but at like the cusp. This is quite a noticeable difference in range and the gap actually widens with better rolls on pulses that prioritize range. Despite them having better overall range, their damage is barely different over time which leaves autos behind as the range and burst power pulses provide has a greater utility over rapid fire and slightly higher damage over time. Autos in PvP. See this is tricky to work on. 600s, 360s, and 720 have incredibly good ttks. What they suffer from is recoil on console, lack of flinch control and lack of dealing flinch back. Snipers can just shoot you as you mow them down and handcannons will shake you like hardlight does but worse. Recoil also prevents them from using their range so pulses just beat them with no real competition. Damage would benefit them only if it changed their ttk, of which even the most subtle changes could do but would be unwise to change. If something could be done 450s, however, to give them some of their old range back I think that would be a good test. They don't have an insanely fast ttk over every other weapon anymore, require more than half their shots be headshots to kill, but they have much lower range than what they started with. Getting them back into the 32 meter+ range would be an excellent buff. In conclusion I pretty much just wasted my time typing out some crap. I'm tired of autos feeling weak and I think they are just much too "in the middle" to be left alone. Scouts are being squashed by pulse rifle but at least have the advantage of vastly higher average range. Autos kind of...suck at everything. Most can't use their range because of recoil and even if you can control the recoil the damage just isn't worth it. Autos need more than just damage to become relevant, but it's the biggest step that bungie needs to take in order to start making them viable in pve. Even breakneck feels like crap because of how bad autos are and 450s being the worst average archetype REALLY doesn't help.[/spoiler]