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6/28/2019 8:06:07 PM
27
The Community and Raids
Hi Everybody,
I'm not sure this is the correct place to put this, but I wanted to address an issue about raiding and the community. Earlier I read a disheartening thread where a fellow player mentioned that their raiding experiences since Destiny 2 release have not been as fun or as good as they were in Destiny 1. They mentioned that it was the mechanics of the raids, but after reading their statements it sounds more like a lack patience on their teacher's part that made the raid more difficult than it needed to be.
This brings up a greater overall issue with the community. I'm not sure there is a dedicated spot for people to go where they want to learn the raid through hands on experience. A lot of the fireteams created for raiding have requirements like the participants are applying for a job. I remember in Destiny 1 you could go to a streamer or another person and put together a raid while carrying the worst guns, because your teacher was willing to spend time teaching you.
I do want to mention that I am not speaking against having requirements for raids. If someone wants to create a fireteam and they have an idea for who they want on their team, then your fireteam members should fit that idea. It keeps people from getting frustrated and makes sure that newer raiding members steer clear of an environment where they will probably not be welcome. So, please, if you are looking for people with X thing then do keep adding those requirements.
But there aren't many people out there just looking to help people get experience and completions with the raid. So, if you are reading this and want to learn the raid here is what I recommend. First, make sure you are 721 light. It just makes everything easier if your enemies aren't killing you faster while you are learning. Second, find a teacher and not just a raid guide. A lot of people learn better through first hand experience. If you need a teacher I am willing to teach Crown of Sorrows to anyone, just message me, reply to this thread -shrugs-, send a pigeon, and we can coordinate a time. Unfortunately I'm only on PSN right now, but next season I'll be on PC too. Third, and this is the most important part, be clear about what you need. If you are with a teacher and they say something that confuses you, wait until they finish and ask for clarification or for them to explain it differently. Don't place blame, but do ask for clarification, we all think and learn differently.
For Sherpas, I think we need to make sure that the learners know we are out there. I currently have only sherpa-ed fellow clan members for the past couple of years, but I love teaching new raids. We also need to be aware that the same teaching method doesn't work for everyone, just because you explained something doesn't mean they understood. Be patient and understand that a teaching raid doesn't always get a completion, and that's ok. You can try again and they'll know more than they did before.
The community is so focused on what guns are the best, and what is the optimal way to _____ that they forget some people just want to sit back and relax with their friends. Raids are end game content, but they are also something that a more casual player definitely has the skills to do.
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This biggest problem imo is not the sherpas but the first time raiders. You could spend a year watching different tutorials on the same raid on youtube or even go and watch a streamer do a raid. And before you argue that this isn’t plausible, if someone has access to destiny they have access to YouTube. First time raiders need to take the 15 or 20 minutes it takes to watch a even basic video on the mechanics of the raid. If it’s a newer raid like a week or two old then fine and if you want to purposely go in blind then tell your team that who (likely is also going in blind otherwise that defeats the point) will then adjust accordingly. I was doing last wish the other day and someone joins struggles through the encounter for almost 30 minutes before leaving in the middle of a run we looked up his stats and he had apparently never raided before and didn’t know what was going on. This was frustrating for us not necessarily because he didn’t know what he was doing (it’s been out for a year now watch a video i mean come on) but because he didn’t tell us and acted like he has a clue what was going on. The issue is 99% of the time the person being sherpad not the Sherpa. End rant
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Never done any of the raids in D2. Just never did. Did all of D1s.
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[quote]For Sherpas, I think we need to make sure that the learners know we are out there. [/quote] This is good to know. But most are on PS4. Not much left on XB1 these days.
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honestly its a two-fold problem 1. some raiders just want to get raids done and have insane requirements 2. new raiders feel they have to lie about their experience, and when they get found out they get kicked and complain how toxic the raids have become honesty is the best policy, there are plenty of people who are willing to teach. usually I tend to join teams that say they are teaching one or two, they tend to be more relaxed and calm. now bear in mind, there will be teams that just suck and will kick you at the end and/or for no reason, but i honestly think that happens less often than most think.
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2 Replies[quote]The community is so focused on what guns are the best, and what is the optimal way to _____ that they forget some people just want to sit back and relax with their friends.[/quote] The devs are so focused on what mechanic can make encounters longer, or more frustrating that they forget D1 raids were more fun and people could sit back and relax with their friends. Fixed it. I had over 100+ raid clears (normal and a few heroic, Oryx challenge lol) in D1, 6 in D2 so the elitists can stat-shame me if they want but me or most of my clanmates have no desire to do the raids in D2. They are not the same as doing raids in D1. They can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig. The revive token system, throwing orbs around, set loadouts for prestige, shooting at invisible symbols, passing a buff that will kill you if it doesn't get passed, overboard mechanics are all things that kill most of the desire to complete them. Then they made it to where you had to play through everything with your other characters to level them up in preparation, instead of passing duplicate gear from your main and (now with the ridiculous infusion costs) infusing it to go back into content you already played through. All for what? A 0.04% chance at a weapon? Raids in D1 were doable without having to watch a video on how to do them without ruining the experience before you could complete it so it was a little more exciting. Shattered Throne is a perfect example of how good raids in D2 could have been (minus the asinine 45 sec. revive timer). Not too complicated and long enough to keep you entertained. I used to love doing a raid in D1 then changing characters and going right back into it as soon as we all got back together in orbit. There's just not that same desire for the raids in D2. I'd love to do all the raids every week on all 3 characters (other 2 are under level), but I don't want to get sherpad and make one mistake then get booted before the end because I didn't memorize the video before I came in (and I've watched them all on video since my clan doesn't want to do them). After watching them on video I know how they end so at least the streamers have that going for them: don't [u]have[/u]to play (or buy) the game to see what happens. If I don't buy Shadowkeep then I can just YouTube encounters to see what is going on.
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3 RepliesThroughout 3/4 of D1 the community was good but there was a point where the maturity of the community really started to decline, now it’s nothing more than a school playground full of kids trying to be all that.
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3 RepliesI understand the Raids are endgame, but some of the timers & unforgiving wipe mechanics are just not fun 🙈
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5 RepliesMaybe a tutorial that takes you through the raid but no rewards because tutorial? So it can teach you the stuff
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1 ReplyAnother thing I don’t think is brought up as often as it should be is that people who want to learn need to be honest about it and their experience. I’ve seen a lot of players lie about knowing what to do or having certain requirements (that they don’t meet) and it makes the experience worse for everybody involved. So please, if you don’t meet the requirements for a group, don’t join claiming you meet those requirements. Instead, be honest and explain that you’re willing to learn and make your own group and I’m sure you’ll find someone.
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1 ReplyI’d definitly sherpa anyone through Last Wish, wxcept vault cuz idk wtf im doing, like this guy sherpa’d me in Destiny 1. His name was MOTD killer and honestly made Destiny 1 so much fun.
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1 ReplyEdited by Raevenent: 6/30/2019 9:50:50 AMThing is, some people are just unteachable, I've done my fair share of teaching and have seen some just unteachable no matter how hard you try and that's rather very taxing mentally especially if you're in the raid longer than you'd hope or want to, I've had to teach 3 guys in CoS one time, we beat it barely after being on the boss for about 5 hours, but I was rather very exhausted afterwards. The most I'm willing to teach is 2 and no more than 2, however if those 2 have bad loadouts for raids, then that gets narrowed down to 1, my group and I can carry 2 depending on the raid(Last Wish is a good example, you can have 2 people not know how to puzzle properly at Shuro Chi, cleanse at Morgeth, and read vault), but if 2 have bad loadouts then only 1 can go and the other will have to wait his or hers turn. 3 is a bit iffy. I've learned this with Monster Hunter the hard way(Thanks Arch-Temp Nergigante) and I think this analogy can apply here, sure you can have the best set up for X, you may have the best means to put out that damage, but what good is that damage if you can't execute the mechanics properly? Here's why I can pretty much never sympathize with anyone who says "Oh I've been kicked from a raid I'll never do one ever again". Did you know what's going on? Do you know what you were doing? Were you being an asshole? Was the group leader an asshole? Were you being a jackass? Was the group leader a total jackass? Did you lie your way in just to raid? If you were being an asshole, a jackass, or lie about knowing how to do a raid, then you 110%, deserved that boot. Especially lying about your experience, people can get angry about that, I know that shit drives me up a wall. "But it's only game." I don't know about you but I for one do not like being lied to or have my time wasted, if that's what you enjoy then great, I'll have no part of it. Also, it does help that the student also does his or her fair share of homework on how to do said raid. "What? I'm not going to watch a guide! I'd rather learn as I play! -blam!- youtube and blah blah blah" Yeah ok, I'd rather learn as I play too but if it's a group activity like a raid, and everyone has to pull their own weight, which you should ALWAYS ASSUME when going into a raid you've never done before, then reverse the rolls around, I'm the student, you're the teacher, then I'm going to do my homework on it so I know what's going on, and ask for clarity when I actually do it, [B]show me how to do it, so I can do it properly[/B] some people want to do it blind, that's cool to, make a team saying you want to do it blind with others, don't join a group that has a general idea of how to do the raid, and you be the only one who hasn't watched it cause you wanted to do it blind.
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2 RepliesI have replied to a topic like this before, but that was before crown of sorrows had come out. I appreciate the sentiment of “anybody can be taught”, “anybody can be carried”, “the community should band together and help people” etc. However, in crown of sorrows specifically, due to the nature of the witch’s blessing buff, each fireteam member to an extent is required to demonstrate some level of competence. Players with buff and players without buff are required to kill certain enemies at different times depending on the timing. It is imperative that each player understand their responsibility, whether it be thrall, wizards, knights, or ogres. If a person is not pulling their weight, in addition to not having timing correct when witch’s blessing needs to be swapped, it becomes immediately obvious. While I don’t condone elitism in anyway, I understand people not wanting to spend hours on a relatively simple concept. I have other sh*t I have to do in the day. Some people will never complete a raid, some people will never see a comp game above 2100, some people will never.......(insert achievement here). And thats okay in the end. Never will encourage trying to make these encounters and mechanics more accessible, because when things are easily completed we don’t get any better as players. Seeing 5500 glory is not an actual achievement in life, completing last wish or crown of sorrow is not an achievement either. Do the best you can with who you are and strive to improve.
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6 RepliesIf we're only sherpaing one person, then it's easy to compensate if they have bad gear. As long as there is only one of them. And we can always give that person the easier jobs to do, like map defender in Scourge.
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11 RepliesA few weeks ago I explained to a guy that I maintained that I could make a raider out of anyone who was willing to listen and learn. Generally when I meet someone (outside of LFG) who hasn't done a specific raid that wants to I give them pretty loose instructions: these are the weapon types recommended. For example for Scourge: you're going to want a decent sniper or scout rifle, a decent shotgun or fusion rifle, and whatever exotic makes you happy. That is your homework this week. On reset, come hell or high water, we're going to get you there. There are three types of people that aggravate me to no end: 1) the guy who 'knows what to do' but keeps messing up mechanics instead of taking the time to learn. We can spend 3 minutes learning or an hour failing. 2) the guy who talks over me when I'm teaching. I will give you one warning to shut up and then I will kick you. I have someone patiently trying to learn this raid and I will not have you impeding them. 3) the guy who blames everyone else for wiping when it's his fault. These three types of people ruin the fun of the game. Thank God for the 'boot from fireteam' button 👍
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4 RepliesI thought Sherpas went extinct in D1 right before AoT?
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2 RepliesI never Sherpa. Most learners have brain damage
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I do great sherpas/through Spire. Takes an hour and a half but it gets done. Ball toss is explained well, roaming supers etc. ph 1 explanations goes into full detail start to finish. And only at ph 2 do I hunker down and tell folks what to run specifically do boss damage goes over well. Only get slightly annoyed at folks asking what to run and why but I always drop the trustworthy, I wouldn’t be telling you if it wasn’t important. But Val Cour is an easy boss with forsaken giving us Well of radiance. People are out there to teach and learn. And only now am I angry with folks posting the KWTD when they really need a sherpa
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I dont do raids because i dont need the loot, i cheesed Last Wish for 4 months for my supremacy and i was done.
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Not quite any gun, but anyone semi competent who has a usable set up, sure.
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8 RepliesAccording to your game history you have done CoS but your raid report says you have not even played since d1 Wot zhe fuk
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1 Reply[quote]I remember in Destiny 1 you could go to a streamer or another person and put together a raid while carrying the worst guns, because your teacher was willing to spend time teaching you[/quote] I think you’re remembering it wrong. It’s not a matter of teaching. It was far easier to carry people through the raids in Destiny 1. Destiny 2 requires people to pull more of their own weight. [quote]But there aren't many people out there just looking to help people get experience and completions with the raid[/quote] That’s also not really true. [quote]The community is so focused on what guns are the best, and what is the optimal way to _____ that they forget some people just want to sit back and relax with their friends[/quote] [i]”Must have Gjallarhorn”[/i] You won’t do yourself or your team any favors if you’re trying to burn bosses with a sidearm. And obviously people play games to have fun. However, there’s nothing fun about sitting at the same encounter for 13 hours because someone refuses to stay alive, or twiddling your thumbs while Timmy Only-Does-Damage-With-A-Primary goes to make a third sandwich, or having to resort to cannibalism waiting for people to jump across a couple of spinning bridges.
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Edited by Nickel7Dime: 6/29/2019 10:14:56 AMFirst off raid teachers in D1 also had plenty of weapon restrictions, because certain things just simply ended up being problematic, especially for newbies. And in many cases these restrictions should exist. I don't care how much you love your little SMG, when it comes to shooting the triangle in gauntlet I am going to tell you to use something else, because I really don't feel like wiping for the 5th time because you missed the one you were supposed to shoot and shot a different one there by killing the runner again. Also after you miss hitting your ogre for the fourth time with mountain top and had to reload recluse 3 times before it finally died, I am going to say you should change weapons, because trying to teach someone is almost impossible if you can't actually get through everything. When it comes to specific weapons, sure I don't think those should typically be a requirement, you can make suggestions (which most people actually wanting to learn seem to want), but not taking someone because they don't have a swarm with spike grenades suggests that the teacher or group teaching might not be cut out for the job. But most runs I do generally have a list of things I say people can't use or at least strongly advise against (and will be more demanding if things get screwed up because of said weapon). These can be weapons like rockets and grenade launchers, depending on the raid, because far to many noobies end up constantly killing themselves with them. I will also normally say no 1k voices, because that is one thousand times more likely to kill you than even a grenade launcher. And yes maybe you can do just fine with a rocket launcher and won't kill yourself, but I have no way of knowing that. And doing a proper teaching run already takes a fair amount of time between proper explanations and wipes from mistakes being made, I don't really feel like potentially taking the time to find out that you are one of the people who can't live and use a rocket launcher in some areas. Training runs can already take double the time of a normal run even with things going fairly smoothly, because proper explanations take a fair amount of time. So the less time I have to waste on things like seeing someone blow themselves up for the third time in a row, the better it is not only for me but everyone else in the run as well. Don't forget a teaching run isn't typically 5 students and 1 teacher, it typically consists of at least 3 people who know what they are doing and have given up their time to help out others, so respect their time by at least using proper/decent weapons. You can have your fun with gear after you have learned the raid and are one of the experience ones in the group.
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1 ReplyWhat time zone you in?
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13 RepliesI mean, having certain guns makes life much easier... but honestly? One undergeared guardian in a team thats kitted out and knows its stuff would be fine. Also, seeing as I've taken to running Last Wish with goofy loadout restrictions for shits n giggles, I'd be a massive hypocrite for not taking someone through just because they didnt have a 12" Gjallarhorn or whatever...
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Every week I would use my NAMEBRAND Wheel of exotics during a raid. It would not matter how many randos or first timers we had. The gun or armor piece you got for that encounter stayed and HAD to adapt. Much better then the cookie cut meta garbage
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2 RepliesI've sherpad once with five people that had never done sotp. They didn't state that when I joined off lfg but i tried to help and got them to phase 2 eventually but had to go because it had been 6 hours. I've only done sotp and last wish, both with top end sherpas and the helped me and made sure I learned everything but before those I could never really find people willing to help out and that's why I hadn't done the other ones. It's not that I find raids hard but more do harder to find people nice enough to teach and stick with it if things go wrong
