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7/12/2018 2:22:16 PM
17
Giant hole in some people's argument about Teamshooting and TTK
And that hole's name is Hypocrisy. Allow me to elaborate.
In a conversation in a [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/246906880?sort=0&page=0&path=1]TTK thread[/url] the other day the usual things came up:
Supposed benefits of lower TTK including better 1v2+ moments which led to a teamshooting conversation.
Firstly let me explain how lower TTK doesn't help 1v2+ engagements.
Although TTK can include abilities it is most widely associated with Weapon kill times.
Weapon TTK by itself mainly only means anything in a 1v1.
Making everything equal; Player (gun)skill, weapon damage, line of sight, etc...
A 1v2 with those parameters the "1" is [u]always[/u] going to lose in a straight out gunfight.
What gives the "1" a chance and creates those moments people want is [u]thumbskill[/u]. Movement, map awareness, abilities. TTK has nothing to do with those therefore has nothing to do with overcoming a 1v2+. People don't talk about Gunskill with these moments. They talk about everything they did to survive and take people out. Most times with a 1HK weapon.
Lowering TTK does not 'help' gunskill so much that it will change these engagements.
The exception is when the skill gap of the '1' and '2' is so wide that it's essentially a curb stomp.
Then in another part of the thread larger map design was brought up claiming it would [u]solve[/u] teamshooting.
So I made the statement: "[b]Larger maps will encourage flanking. Which is also teamshooting.
Is flanking somehow a more acceptable form of teamshooting?[/b]"
And the answer I got was: "[b]If the whole team flanks then no, but then they're still walking as a group rather than covering more ground so the end result will still be the same[/b]."
Me: " [b]That's kind of hypocritical though. Either it's teamshooting or it's not. How can their be OK ways and not OK ways[/b]."
Person: "[b]If one person flanks then it's not teamshooting. If the majority of the team is, then it's teamshooting[/b]."
Wait what? Sooo one kind of teamshooting is ok and another isn't? Riiiiight.
So I offered this:
"[b]Think of a giant V formation. 1 person at the point and 2 at the tips spread out. What's the difference when both of them shoot the 1 person together vs if they were closer together or clumped? The answer is nothing[/b]."
You can't conveniently define teamshooting as the [u]whole[/u] team and leave flanking alone.
People just want 1v2+ engagements to be easier NOT more viable. These moments can and do happen in D2 it's just harder. I imagine after September when shotguns are more available we'll see more 'moments'. But again TTK doesn't matter with a shotgun. However, if the TTK is lowered it will only hurt the shotgun rusher.
This brings to light the hypocrisy and selfishness of this whole debate IMO.
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2 RepliesEdited by skiLLaBiyte: 7/16/2018 9:27:09 PMNo gaping hole here. Just logic. Lower TTK means that the player with proper planning, weapon handling, and accuracy can sew lesser players into ribbon's. Why? Because accurate shots are REWARDED and encouraged. It should NOT take a Scout Rifle more than 3 Bullets to the head to secure a kill. Just like it shouldn't take an SMG more than 8-10 bullets to the cranium to sustain a kill within it's optimal range either. If TTK's were lowered, at least for Headshots, then a player who is fast, and has good accuracy, has the ability to take on 3 or more players at once for those incredible moments that we go to watch or be part of in pvp. Destiny, really doesn't have those moments. You're either happy to take one guy out before you die, or you simply die immediately to a team shot. [b]Basically, here's what I'm saying will absolutely FIX pvp in this game, and it would fix it overnight. It only requires 3 changes:[/b] [b]1.)[/b] Increase the Headshot modifier drastically. It should be balanced to greatly reward good accuracy. For example: A 180 or 200 RPM Scout Rifle should never be more than a 3 Tap TTK to the head. A 150 should be a consistent 2-Tap, etc. Start there. Work your way to the other weapons. [b]2.)[/b] Very slightly increase the Bodyshot TTK. But only very slightly. This is to bring the overall TTK to the body down a tiny bit, but still greatly reward "accuracy" over spray-n-pray. [b]EDIT:[/b] and come to think of it, you could leave body-shot TTK alone, and not touch it at all. This would make skill and accuracy an even greater reward. But I digress. [b]3.) [/b]Radar - No, not "No Radar" and not the kind of Radar we currently have in the Casual Playlist. I mean RADAR, like there is in just about every other shooter out there. In other words - You have a Radar that shows YOU and your TEAMMATES, but NOT the enemy, unless of course you have a special "perk" that allows temporary visual of enemy position (think the Drone kill-streak in MW2). Having No Radar is absolutely stupid for any shooter, but having a radar that highlights enemy positions is JUST as stupid. For some reason Bungie went from one extreme to the other with this. We need Radar, but we don't need enemy movement displayed on it. Make these 3 Changes, and PvP as we know it is fixed and balanced. Then, and only then, can the Dev's really start to balance the weapon and class system as a whole.
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1 ReplyI never understood the complaint against the higher TTK either. The most obvious reason being if it takes you less time to kill, it takes less time to [i]be[/i] killed. I certainly don't want to go to a Star Wars; Battelfront TTK which is really low.
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1 ReplyYea.. this is dead wrong lol Movement and positioning skill mean very little when it takes 3 years to kill. There are two ways to win an outnumbered situation. 1: kill them all at once with a good ability placement (impossible in d2 because abilities are tuned to be online with slow ass ttk) 2: (the most common) force a series of 1v1 engagements with movement, positioning and zoning abilities. Again nearly impossible in D2. because of the slow ttk, you cannot win the 1v1s fast enough and as such they become 1v2/3 before you finish the kill. Also, In general. Notice how fast ttk games have tons of potential for winning outnumbered situations (ie cod, battlefield, titanfall) while slow ttk games like halo and d2 do not.
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1 ReplyIt's not the TTK that made the game better in D1. It was the great abilities, special weapons, space magic and gear that connected with space magic that made PvP great and unique.
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1 ReplyIs the "giant hole" a gaping chest wound?
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24 RepliesPeople don't want 1v2s to be easier. They want them to have outcomes determined by skill....not just numerical superiority. Bringing more guns to fight in a closed fishbowl is not really a skill and not really a very interesting way to play in the eyes of most players. Because of the lower TTK, special weapons, faster health regeneration, and more powerful abiltiies. Skilled players (in terms of both mind skill and thumbskill) could take on multiple players. By simply outgunning them with a primary (better accuracy)...or by making better DECISIONS than their opponent. On my PS4 there is video of me winning a 1v4 in an Iron Banner match in D1. It was a poorly executed team push where they came at me piece-meal rather than as a cohesive unit. The first two rounded the corner. I killed both of them because of the faster TTK and faster health regeneration. I put the first guy down before the second guy could put fire on me....and because of the faster fight and faster health regen, I was able to out-duel the second guy as well. The third guy came around the corner so fast that I was still weak, and didn't even have time to reload my primary. So tagged him with a fusion grenade. Dead. The fourth guy came around the corner. I'm out of grenades and primary is still empty. I take my sniper rifle and put a hip-fired round into his chest, and then melee him for the kill. That's the kind of "Hero Moment" that is the product of knowing the game well...and CHAINING together GOOD decisions could produce in Destiny 1. Moments that allowed for skill expression and sense of player power. THAT PLAY WOULD SIMPLY BE IMPOSSIBLE IN DESTINY 2...AND THAT'S WHY PEOPLE DON'T FIND ITS PVP ENJOYABLE. Odds are in Destiny 2, that entire sequence would have just resulted in a kill-trade. I would have outdueled the frist guy. But because of the longer TTK and the slower health regen, I would have been easy clean up for the second guy. Either because he would have been able to put fire on me before I could put the first guy down....or because the first guy would have left me in such a weakened state that winning the second gun fight would have been impossible. Even if by some miracle I won the 1v2...I would have had to run away and hide. Because of the nerfing to grenades, and removal of special ammo from the game....I WOULD HAVE BEEN LEFT WITH NO WAY TO QUICKLY KILL THE THIRD PLAYER....NEVER MIND THE FOURTH PLAYER....UNLESS I EITHER HAD MY SUPER UP, OR POWER AMMO AVAILABLE. So----because of Bungie's heavy handedness---play has been rigidly funneled into a mold of every gunfight basically being decided in favor of which ever side brings the most guns. So wind up with a game that is dull, frustrating and repetitive (not in a good way.)
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21 RepliesEdited by Truthiness_Inc: 7/14/2018 7:17:16 PMYou miss the point completely. People will always search out the advantage and then...take advantage. This is exactly the point of flanking the enemy or going alone to one side of the map to deny heavy for the other team as well as teamshotting. But if you can't kill fast enough and then in turn heal fast enough after an engagement the advantage of flanking flies right into the toilet. This is why you only see flanks with heavy weapons or 2 players flanking at the same place, and tamshotting everywhere. Now if you make TTK faster, then a flanking player can catch a group unaware, kill a player, and try to reconvene with their team. The way it is now you flank and shoot a guy in the back and by the time he's dead everyone on his team is shooting you because over a full second is ages when there is a gun in everyone's hand.
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6 RepliesGoing to have to disagree with you here. This will be one of those rare instances where Kelly and I are in agreement completely.
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How about Bungie implements a Hardcore mode and put these TTK theories to the test? 1 shot, 1 kill, every weapon - twitch-reaction-skill to the max. Overall I agree with you, though I do see some good points being made by others against the argument. As it is now, if the playing field is even (i.e. same overall player skill/ability, top quality internet connections, equal familiarity with the weapons, the map, with relatively equally ideal positioning, access to cover, and many other things that play a role in how a particular firefight turns out) a single player engaging 2+ players should ALWAYS lose. When people say they should have been able to "outplay" the enemy in those 1v2+ engagements (but couldn't), they need to recognize that as a moment in time where the playing field was, at minimum, even - everyone reacted at the same time, everyone was able to have perfect accuracy and fire at the same time, etc = you being dead (actually in a Hardcore 1 shot = 1 kill mode, you'd be able to at least get 1 kill but still lose the 1v2 overall). The only way you win that engagement is when an aspect of the playing field is NOT equal for those you are engaging (i.e. a situation where everything I listed above favors you - you're higher skilled, your positioning is better, etc), and because TTK is an aspect of the playing field that EVERYONE has to deal with and has no control of, making changes to it isn't going to make you any better or worse in those 1v2 engagements, only making YOURSELF better will. The TTK is what it is, alter your playing style accordingly, or go play CoD.
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Edited by NYC_InfamousNick: 7/13/2018 12:14:30 AMI'm gonna poke holes in your hole-poking. In your head, you see teamshotting and flanking as the same because you view the end result as a team shooting targets in unison. However, flanking is a strategy that works well with this idea, but does not [b]require[/b] every single member of the strategy to be in the same place, allowing for losses with a net-win. Hypothetical situation to elaborate: [b]Emperor's Respite[/b]: A lane-centric map with routes available along the far sides of the map for potential flanks on unaware opponents. Team A flanks Team B by sending 1 person around either outer lane, while Team B stays together in a group on point B, arguably the most important flag of this map. Team B does not notice, and Team A commit to distracting with gunfire while the flanker gets in position. In this case, if any member of team A dies to facilitate the flank of team B, the flanker still has the element of surprise as an inherent advantage. [i]Current TTK[/i] would allow for Team B to have more than ample time to turn and react to the flanker, making their move a net-loss for Team A. [i]Lower TTK[/i] would allow the flanker to get 1-2 kills before Team B has time to react, and the remnants of Team A rush in during the confusion to strike, with higher odds of success. [i]Current TTK[/i] encourages [b]deathball[/b], because in a 1v2 situation, the 1 will rarely kill either of the 2. And if they do, it results in a tie for both teams until one team decides to add more than the 2 minimum players to the [b]deathball[/b]. The more players available per team, the more can join the deathball, until the potential for a 1v6 becomes possible. This continues until the team that sticks together the most wins or is defeated by superior mechanics from the opposing side (very rarely).
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1 ReplyI now feel dumber after reading this.
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15 RepliesI don't think kill times have anything to do with team shooting. Any game I ever played with a team we stuck together. This includes D1 and CoD. We always came out on top if one person tried to flank. Yes a faster kill did allow the solo a chance at one or two kills in CoD but CoD ttk is extremely fast. In D1 the best way to win was to stick together, that's why Trials became so boring.
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1 ReplyEdited by Globaltrnr: 7/12/2018 6:20:33 PMJust make it like D1 = problem solved. The issue for me are the over fragmented maps - 0 choke points. Flanking is waaaayyy too easy in D2.
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1 ReplyIn D1, you constantly had access to instant kill weapons like snipers/shotguns and nearly instant kill weapons like the last word (which could originally kill in 2 shots when the hipfire perk was active, and it could be active even while ADS due to a bug that everyone took advantage of. The TTK was faster than normal human reaction time). Teamshotting was a lot less prevalent because you didn't really need it, you could run around on your own and do pretty well. In D2, everything is slowed down and you have a high chance of dying before you manage to kill 1 or 2 people if you're by yourself (unless you hoard power ammo)... Of course people are going to teamshoot. People naturally gravitate towards the fastest way to kill people.
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Edited by SirNicolasCage: 7/12/2018 4:44:23 PMI agree with you. I can see both sides of the coin. I understand that a lower ttk allows for a skilled player (while using a primary weapon) to outmaneuver his opponents and get a double kill if his shots are precise. But I have always been FOR a higher time to kill. I love the halo pvp aspect (granted halo had WAYYY better game modes that made for more fun memories). To be honest, I wasn’t a huge fan of destiny 1 pvp. I played it for the loot. I’d grind to get a god roll in pve, try it out a couple times in crucible, then throw it in the vault and move on to the next one. The pvp just isn’t fun enough to stand up on its own. However, with all the changes made in destiny 2, I am enjoying destiny pvp ON IT’S OWN more than I ever have. And what I mean by that is I am enjoying the actual gameplay itself without needing an incentive to play (flipping crucible rank for loot or possible post match drops, etc.). The thing with a higher ttk is that it opens up the ability for them having more and more weapon archetypes that can actually compete. For instance, in d1 the primary weapon ttk was incredibly low. There were 4 pulse rifle archetypes. One of them fired so slow, that to keep it within a useable/non-broken range, they either had to make it completely overpowered, or make it useless. Higher ttk allows them more room to adjust damage numbers and better balance the individual weapon time to kill. As far as team shooting goes, it will always be the most effective method in any game. Coordinated teams will always have the advantage. They did in d1 and they do in d2. I don’t think changing the ttk will affect this aspect for solo players by very much, in fact it could possibly make team shorting worse. I don’t know though. As far as power ammo goes, I have been enjoying the current weapon ammo economy. I like the heavy spawn rate because it keeps power weapons in line still, but allows players a few chances a match to make something happen. I’ve never really complained about weapon economy anyways because I always used invective in pvp, and when sidearms were the meta in d1, I used those as well. I found it fun figuring out what was going to be the best. The one and ONLY time I would not play crucible was when snipers had their reign of terror in taken king. I hate snipers and the people that use them. I will always single out a sniper and make it my life’s goal to make sure he doesn’t enjoy his match with me, even if that means dying multiple times in order to push him and make him uncomfortable. Or if it means I literally sit behind a corner and emote while watching him hardscope a lane for 5 minutes waiting for me to pop out (which I will absolutely not do for any reason). I find destiny’s pvp boring, always have. I prefer a fun objective where kills don’t count towards a score and are more of an afterthought or seen as part of a strategy. That being said, I will continue to play destiny including it’s boring pvp because destiny is my home.
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1 ReplyThe only issue I have high TTK in Destiny 2 is the extreme emphasis on movement. Movement options are exactly why Hunters are so prevalent in the crucible at this time. The only thing lower TTK would achieve would be a greater instance of trades taking place when a flank goes south(subsequently reducing the “flight over fight” phenomenon that is so common right now). A greater number of trades(even under team fire, when you obviously got the jump on an opponent, would also reduce the experience of constantly being collapsed on following a “pick”. I’m not a major proponent of drastic TTK reduction, but I do see the drawback of having high TTK when movement options are so wide spread. It’s not uncommon to experience a lot of slow paced, passive, campy engagements that end in a player who was obviously out of position slip away with no recourse for bad habits. Put all of these issues together with the pretty substantial reduction of in-air-accuracy, and you have a game where the dominate play style is clumping up in lanes, teamshooting and avoiding 1v1 encounters at all cost. I think Bungie saw the team focused popularity of Trials of Osiris as an indicator that players enjoyed (or otherwise would potentially enjoy) gameplay that resembles overwatch rather than Halo or COD. Currently I feel that to be able to even be able to PLAY quick play, I have to approach the game with the same level of intensity that I had to, in the highest level of competition in D1(Trials). It’s simply not fun, and ends up being stressful for players at all levels of skill. I don’t have the silver bullet solution on how to fix it, but something needs to happen before massive lag creeps in due to SBMM and low player counts kill the remaining player base after content drought sets in mid summer.
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What bothers me the most about this whole debate is that players arguing for a faster ttk with Kinetic/Energy think a small difference in ttk is somehow going to enable them to win 1v2 or 1v3, or get more total kills per match. Usually that was only viable in D1 because of Grenade spam and Special weapons. Not because of a difference of 1 or 2 tenths of a second in ttk between Primaries in D1 and Kinetic/Energy in D2. And with SMGs and Sidearms very popular in D2, their ttk would also have to decrease to maintain their current advantage. So we're looking at a normal ttk that approaches Machine Guns ttk from D1. I guess we'll be getting Machine Guns back in a way.
