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Edited by Onyx Guard:
5/17/2018 11:42:50 AM
8
A Question of Vex and Hive tactics
Last time I asked about the relationship between the Vex and Hive, it was to gain a grasp of the range of dimensional manipulation, travel, or expansion possessed by each race respectively.
Through this, you all taught me that the Vex and the Hive were more than likely already at war before guardians were a thing.
As fan made lore seemed to be.. there and I'd been planning to do so for months anyway, I gave a sample to a concept that someone probably already mentioned.
In short:
-Vex can't make throne worlds.
-Hive can.
-Vex can build the Hive machines.
-Hive can be forced to make them work.
-Vex can mask their presence from the light.
-Vex need steady supply of troops, and a throne world with internal time gates to connect it to hidden points within multiple time lines sounds like a good way to resupply your troops under the Guardian's noses.
So my question comes down to two parts:
1. Since the Vex are at war with the Hive and are unable to simulate or replicate Throne Worlds, would it not be likely that a group of Vex "force" the creation of a throne world by harnessing the soul of an ascendant and manipulating it into the body of a lesser Hive until they can stabilize a rift in which to build?
Say this manipulation can be done via an extreme survival reaction: break the "host" to a point near death to make it unable to resist the incoming soul, and expose the soul to something like a shard of the Traveler to make it seek refuge in a host body before it is extinguished. The Vex need not touch the Traveler's shard, and the Hive body is not expected to survive the entire process, they only need the beginning of a rift to expand.
2. If this worked better than expected, and Vex lost control, could their shells become slaves the surviving Hive?
This assumes the Vex have been hollowed out by the ascendant rather than taken, with the white goop either corrupted or somehow drained and replaced by something more organic.
This is an outcome that produces a small rift through the initial gate and lacks the additional temporal gates, but offers the Hive a pocket in which to breed and prepare to summon their more powerful champions in secluded safety from the eyes of the guardians thanks to the hidden Vex surroundings.
That last one is what I'm going for in my wooble that posted earlier today on your tab, but it caught flack faster than a B-17 so I figured it'd by nice to spare you having to read the story.
I offer grace, because you will find no mercy in me.
Maybe I'm over thinking all of this; just figured that if I were a machine, and the enemy had something I wanted but couldn't make, I'd force one to make it for me.
Edit: App's back up and running for me.
Now no one is safe.
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1 ReplyEdited by Teejaeche: 5/18/2018 5:43:56 AMMy theory on the Vex is that when you enter a Vex fortification such as the Pyramidion, Vault of Glass, or Infinite Forest, everything in there is a simulation save for a few "moderators," so to speak. Have you ever seen descendant or precursor Vex outside of these places? How are you able to "permanently" kill something like Atheon or Penoptes if the Vex are such great masters of time? Perhaps the answer is that the Vex don't have as much control as we think, and that they are currently devoting all their processing power trying to evaluate every tiny decision ever and will be made. As far as we can tell, this is proving impossible even with Mercury functioning as the strongest computer ever made. Getting lost in time could be explained as the Vex quarantining and deleting the Guardians like malware because that's what we are when we're in these areas. The Vex can't do that anywhere else or they'd win every fight by deleting us. Osiris, in the Infinite Forest, is basically a trojan horse letting more malware in. As for Praedyth? I'm not sure he's actually dead, just stuck in a Vex simulation. The skeleton we find in the Vault of Glass could just be a simulation of a future where Praedyth died in the Vault because if you actually run VoG and go to that location, there's no skeleton.
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10 RepliesNope. The Hive don’t want anything from the Vex except to kill and Take them. The Vex wanted to learn the power of throneworlds from them, which Quria did and transmitted before being Taken. Now at this point the Vex have their own unique space. During the Hive-Vex conflict anytime the Hive went through the Vex gates to bring the fight to them they [i]lost a lot of their power and stopped going in[/i]. Now that’s means they went somewhere where the laws of reality are different. Throneworlds, at least the Hive, as described as cyst universes. Toland traveled the Hive thrones and described them as bubbles contained within a dark dimension and were connected to each other there. So in actuality, it’s a greater dimension connected to ours that houses throneworlds. We don’t know if this is the Deep or something else. The Vex used the power of throneworlds to make the Infinite Forest for sure. Because they control the laws of that space. That’s how the make “real” enemies who are beyond their control, because they are made to think and operate on their own. That’s how the Vex study them to learn how to beat them. How they managed to simulate Light. The Vault of Glass may or may not be a throneworld, it may be their original plane or something else. We haven’t been there, that’s for sure, because we’ve never lost power in any of their spaces. You’re ideas in 1 and 2 , while creative, have no support to my knowledge. Taken have been used to power machines and armor but “controlling” hasn’t been observed. I do like how you think, very creative. Good work on that part. Go to Ishtar Collective to read up on the lore from both games. You may be able to refine your idea then.
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1 ReplyThe vault was basically a vex throne world with Atheon being the ascendant creature. Rather than being able to hold physical control of it, they held control of the time within it.
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1 ReplyEdited by LoxusVT: 5/17/2018 4:16:19 AMNo vex can not every simulate throne world's. According to lore the vex made a deal with crota because they wanted to understand the sword logic but couldn't and thought that visiting a throne world would provide some information into what and how to make one. Problem is that the hive only have this ability because of the worm gods and the pacts with the worms. Prior to the hive being the hive they were a species of criten which originally ( as far as we know) didnt have these abilities. Only when they made pacts with the worms gods and became ascendant did they get this ability to create other dimensions. And even then only the strongest among them can do so like crota/ orix and also possibly nocris and sabathune. By the by you could never force a hive to do anything because it defies the sword logic. Hive live or die in battle, the only way the worm inside them doesnt eat them alive is if they feed it the death of other beings so trying to hold a hive captive in either way would just kill it. Like if you manage to capture a high level hive like crota who has its own thrown room you would have to keep it alive some how through combat and if it failed at any point it would die and just regen in its thrown room. Furthermore the vex dont need to force a race to serve them to make a vex army that vex are infinite and not just because they can time travel. According to lore around asher the vex radiolaria is more of a micro organism used to transform any organic tissues into vex tech which is why ashers arm is all metal. Vex will always exist because they can always build from other organic beings the army they need.
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3 RepliesEdited by IRaidWithAussies: 5/16/2018 12:44:40 PMFallen - Wormhole, Light speed capabilities. Vex - Chronal, Time Travel capabilities Hive - Multiversal, Universe Travelling capabilities Vex CAN create throneworlds, they just need to travel to a time where it's possible (see Books of Sorrow and Atheon) Basically this is just Bungie half assedly explaining why we constantly fight Atheon, or Crota, etc. The Calus Bot was another really lazy example of it.
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3 RepliesI am not 100 percent sure the vex know what a throne room is. I know they have been in one, seeminglu not much trouble getting in (or crota left the door unlocked idk) but why would the vex need a throne room for?
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They never tried to simulate a throne world, they focused on Oryx but couldn't simulate him( and guardians ) because of paracausality. They did however learn how a throne world works, besides sword logic they didn't go any further because they did not want to be slaves of the worm gods. They made their own throne world and that's the Vault of Glass, they took their paracausality to the limits there. The Sol Divisive was meant to bridge it's powers, everything failed but the vault still stands. With CoO they have the Infinite Forest, meant to simulate light and paracausality as a whole. We destroyed their minds yet it still stands too. It seems they're trying to get on both sides of the spectrum, and with that it's going well.
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2 RepliesEdited by STARWoLF00: 5/16/2018 6:29:06 AMThe vault of glass was technically a vex throne world. They first encountered the concept of throne worlds in their battles with the hive. A pocket dimension/ universe where they make the rules.
