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Edited by Der Sheff:
11/15/2017 11:00:56 PM
60
“Dying a lot” is not the selling point for a raid, it is the death of it
“You’ll die a lot” was strongly emphasized in the latter portion of the reveal stream for Curse of Osiris’ raid lair. I feel like this is an admission of a poorly designed sandbox. That we are destined to fail. The game is rigged, so “get f*cked.”
With the Leviathan as it is, failing feels like it is owed to a lesser set of tools than the difficulty of the mechanics. We are geared to lose with two weak primaries, terrible ability cool-down rates, worse health regen / resilience modifiers and, finally, ammo attrition. All of that and the emphasis is “dying a lot” has supplanted difficulty in a raid, where the biggest pain point they can introduce is a group fail mechanic due to a weak link. I, for one, am pissed.
You guys developed a beautiful game with the most elegant shooting mechanics and crafted a great story. You then gutted power, removed incentive for hardcore players and lowered the bar on the endgame, yet raised the pain point for individual failure. Then doubled down on RNG loot. I don’t understand why you did it, but I hate it. I genuinely hate it.
This is coming from someone who invested 3,000 hours in to D1 with 950+ raid completions. The first two months of D2, I put in 250+ hours with 30 raid completions and 25 Prestige Nightfall completions. Now, I can’t bear to log on a play. Not after the Prestige Raid. Not when the only feeling I was getting was that I was alienating friends and clan members who were not good enough. What once was a [fri]end-game is now a “you’re not good enough” game; because “dying a lot” has become your pain point.
Well, congrats, you’ve broken my ability to enjoy this game. Just one more disenfranchised Destiny veteran that wants to love a marvelous game, yet has been pushed away by poor designed philosophy. Sure, I’ll log on and play from time to time, but the magic is gone. The desire to hop on and raid on Tuesday, to be the first to get a challenge emblem, etc., etc., etc. I don’t have it.
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1 ReplyI hear you. It used to matter how strong you were, what equipment you had, and which weapons you carried. Now all that is required is muscle memory and good reflexes. Vault of Glass has been replaced with six-man Super Mario, wherein if one member of your team misses that double jump you wipe. Some may call that a fun raid; I sure don’t.
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4 RepliesDying alot can mean different things, challenge, bad mechanics, etc. That being said... do you know what a raid is right? It requires... EVERYBODY to do their job. You hate wipping to a mechanic over and over again because someone f'd up. Then kick them. That means they need to be in a learning group instead of a clear group. Teamwork is supposed to be a crucial element to a raid, you can only hero a certain aspect of a raid, but you still require TEAMMATES.
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Edited by WulfPak666: 11/19/2017 12:09:50 AM"Youll die a lot" *Flashback to Beta with the giant turbine fan* New Leviathan Raid Lair will feature the return of the Turbine Fan...oh and KF's Dick Wall 2.0
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Bungie's idea of difficulty, since the release of D1, has been: 1: Yellow bar enemies with overshields 2: Enemy weapons able to kill you in 1-2 shots 3: Spawning enemies that are 1-2 levels higher than you (at max lvl) 4: Adding a timer to things They have no idea how to make an encounter fun and difficult at the same time. They have no idea how to scale difficulty so its a challenge rather than a kick in the nuts. They take the laziest path possible when it comes to making "challenging encounters". So yea, they feel like "players dying a lot" is the epitome of "challenging encounters" when really its just an annoyance and discourages players from even booting up the game.
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2 RepliesThey said the same of dark souls, but I'm not complaining
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[quote]where the biggest pain point they can introduce is a group fail mechanic due to a weak link.[/quote] All that mechanic did was make the LFG make even more posts demanding you be "300+ No exceptions and must have Flawless Raider from Destiny 1" to avoid that mechanic.
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5 RepliesDon't forget. You'll be dying a lot to earn that sticker or shader.... Because we all know Bungie is too scared to reward effort in this game with anything but a cosmetic.
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The game is -blam!- off
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When I saw "You will die a lot" I thought "Are you trying to copy the slogan of Demon's Souls and Dark Souls?" then realized "Oh they must mean they just overstuffed if with bullet sponge enemies that they want you to die to a lot".
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Edited by AddiCt3d 2CHa0s: 11/17/2017 6:15:30 PMA ton of good points in here, and well written! I agree with op and most in here, including the dude that said something to the effect of we can't cap on it until we play it. Sure, it might be awesome. If that is the case, someone bung'ed ( see what I did there?) the hype train and is failing to present it in a manner appealing to Destiny players. All I know is, Destiny 1 was awesome, and Bungie is making the same mistakes 343 has made with Halo: you don't take something fans love and radically change it, you go in delicately preserving those aspects that are loved and up those aspects! It's like going in and redesigning a treasured family recipe then calling it the same thing because it doesn't look different.
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Edited by noxdg: 11/18/2017 3:18:40 AMI hate to say, but a comment like "you'll die a lot" supports my opinion that Bungie confuses "challenging" with "frustrating". One is fun, the other is not fun. It's been like that since the beginning of Destiny 1 in all aspects of the game. Activities, leveling, and even the weapons.
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Agreed...its ridiculously hard! Or you'll die to glitches not actually messing up! Not a good raid selling point.
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We gonna die a lot because of the architects lol..,but seriously guys just don’t take the game serious anymore and you lll save yourselves a lot of unecessary stress, stay positive and think about the friendships we make in D2 (I actually made one friend, it was in D1 for a nightfall because I refused to play D2, he then convinced me to do some grinding in D2 ..unwillingly I do it but we talked smack whenever we do public events, I always remind him to pop three of coin when fighting bosses!! Lol so yeah I didn’t preorder curse o Osiris, def will wait for reviews before buying ..Cheerio mates
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I just wanted to add that Bungie seemingly implemented an auto “pull of the plug” death mechanism in PvE mode. This has been obvious since at least PoE’s introduction in HoW. Basically, they’re “issued” deaths that are unwarranted, and do not reflect the actual encounter or play action. Something similar exists in PvP, where actual encounters are manipulated, probably by Bungie.
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I agree - The most common reason any of my team died was due to crappy/ gimmicky mechanics and glitchy raid programing. 'You will Die a lot" is not a selling point for a game, nor should it signify that people will be entertained.
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Edited by MightyJonE: 11/18/2017 12:01:47 AMA few years back, dying a lot was [i]de rigeur[/i] for many games. Devs have softened their stance over the years
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I feel like emphasizing the challenge is what should be done in the first place. No endgame activity should be easy, and if they emphasize the difficulty, I hope they stick to it. Dark souls emphasizes difficulty, but since I've gotten pretty good at it...it's not anymore :/
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If I want to die alot, I'd play cuphead [spoiler]seriously Im bad at cuphead :([/spoiler]
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"You will die a lot" As long as everyone loads in when we wipe then I don't mind.
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8 RepliesDying is the mark of failing to meet the expectations set by an activity, so to state that one would "die a lot" would be the same as saying that you'll fail to beat the activity a lot, which seems that the activity is designed to be more difficult. Isn't the whole design point of the raid to be a difficult multi-player activity? Are the devs not allowed to remark that they think the activity will be difficult?
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I do agree that some of the Raid's difficulty is artificial in nature. I've only ever completed the Pleasure Gardens and spent a good long while on the Gauntlet, but connection issues on the part of some party members as well as the lack of knowledge on every bit of that encounter eventually led to us disbanding the run after a couple hours and wanting to come back to it later. When it's hard enough to get a Guided Game queue to pop as a seeker (And since one cannot reconnect to a guided game in case of a crash or connection issue), it means few, if any, people are willing to put up with Guided Games. I thought the whole philosophy of Guided Games was to let 3-5 Clanmates help 1-2 solo/duo players with getting a party and learning the encounters and mechanics. Some of the mechanics I've seen so far are intuitive, like having to prevent standard reclaimers from grabbing the standards that unlock the door. But the Gauntlet in particular has some REALLY strict time and team-awareness requirements that instantly wipe the raid if not painstakingly kept track of and taken into account. Before finally disbanding the party and adding each other to friends list and giving discord links, the group I got two weeks ago managed to get to the last group run of the Gauntlet, only to instant wipe before the running started because a Psion was left alive outside and mind-wiped us. I haven't been able to make an attempt at the raid since, since my clan's really suffered with recruitment and I missed my new friends' clan runs since then due to a messed up sleep schedule. One other member of my clan REALLY wants to do the raid and learn the mechanics, but in the end we just don't have enough people and the guided game queues are murder for seekers. It wouldn't be NEARLY as bad if we could be in the queue for a Guided Game and still be doing open-world stuff on one of the planets. But no, to be in queue you have to be patiently sitting in orbit doing absolutely nothing.
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Dying alot in a Raid? I thought that was common.
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30 RepliesI will need to disagree. Having more difficult content available for those who appreciate the challenge is a huge positive. In D1 we could 2 or 3 man almost every encounter. It’s refreshing to have something that will challenge a 6-man team.
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I agree with everything in your post. I can't find the 'fun' in D2..it's just not there for me.
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When did [quote]you'll be dying alot[/quote] become a bullet point? Or something to look forward to or did I miss something? Last time I checked you want to [b]encourage[/b] people to do your raid. Phrases like 'more difficult/challenging mechanics/bosses' or 'your guardians will have their mettle truly tested and face enemies/challenges equal to them', works a hell of a lot better. Saying "you'll die alot" isn't winning any points with novice raiders.
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1 ReplyI can understand that playtime in D1, but how in the hell did you last that long in D2?
