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4/20/2017 11:43:22 PM
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The Difference Between Primary and Special
Primary
Your main source of firepower. The go to for regular use. Auto Rifles are designed for close-short mid range battles, Pulse for short middle-middle range battles, Scout for mid-long-long range battles, and Hand Cannons are meant for close-short mid-middle range battles.
Special
Your secondary source of firepower. Shouldn't be used as much as your PRIMARY. Should be used for SPECIAL situations. Someone too close? Shotgun/sidearm. Expecting someone to push/a little to far away? Fusion. Someone extremely far away/primary won't do the job at that range? Sniper. All of these are SPECIAL situations.
The Problem
So why do I see someone across the map with a shotgun who decides to push me from that distance instead of using their primary? Or some dude in the back of the map hardscoping instead of supporting his teammates? And why am I losing to a sidearm from Pulse range? Primary is UNDERPOWERED. The problem is that Bungie doesn't see that special should be used in special situations. Like they were in year one, when primary was powerful enough to shutdown a shotgunner or kill a sniper fast enough before they dome you.
The Solution
Bring back special ammo and buff primaries. Special will NEVER be a problem, if they are used how they should; and if primaries are powerful enough to enforce that. Auto Rifles need a slight base damage buff, but a more severe damage dropoff. Clever pulses need that frame nerf revoked, and PDX needs a slight precision damage buff. Scout rifles need a better headshot damage multiplier. Leave Hand Cannons alone, but REMOVE BLOOM (and for god's sake allow The Wail to roll with rifled or at least give it 10 rounds). And for special balance, sidearms shouldn't do precision damage. Shotguns need a slight range nerf, but remove the in-air accuracy and rangefinder nerf. Snipers need to do less bodyshot damage, but remove the scope nerfs (and give me a reason not to want shortgaze on every sniper). Also, fix the goddamn head hit box. I'm so tired of getting headshot-bodyshots.
That is all.
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Primary: versatility. Special: really good at one thing and one thing only (or a backup in the case of a sidearm). I seriously don't get why this is hard.
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9 RepliesYou do know that we can see your grimoire, and therefore which weapons you use the most? In your rush to make a point, you neglected to inform us that you, yourself use shotguns as if they were primaries... Honestly, the lengths that these shotgun users will go to, making things up, and blatantly lying through their teeth, anything to bring back their favoured meta.
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2 RepliesI stopped reading when you said special shouldn't be used, you and noone else tells us how to play the game.
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1 ReplyEdited by Grey-Fox-Omega: 4/22/2017 10:34:12 AMI get why they did it I just don't like the implementation if ammo is limited then the guns should be better than they are now, with guns at their current level I don't see why for the most part that ammo should be limited With the lastest round of changes shotguns for example only seem to kill consistently at melee range now and I don't recall seeing that many fusions before and I see even less now. The actual ability to snipe was unaffected, people just lost their favourite legendaries. You can still snipe but have to use a NLB or Icebreaker (not a good outcome for anyone in my view) Personally I think they could do two things Either just revert the ammo change or increase the effectiveness and power of specials, but limit the amount of ammo you get in a round with no loss on death Something like a mag on spawn (sidearms two), no loss on death and you have a special spawn in when heavy drops once a round. That way you get powerful specials but you need to pick the times and places to get best use out of your limited ammo. Current situation feels like a very poor halfway house Although you can technically have special all the time to do so would at a guess require spending 30 to 40% of the round waiting on or looking for ammo which is just not fun. Even when i have ammo, the non sidearm specials just don't feel that special anymore, they spent so much time sitting alongside primaries and getting balanced around them that suddenly loosing their ammo right at the end without getting any improvements to offset such a big change (shotguns actually got made even worse) felt like complete overkill. Hence why I think it would be more fun to either bring the ammo back with the guns as they are now so you have more choice of guns and play style or truely limit special and improve the guns from their current state.
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3 RepliesThe problem isn't that Primaries are weak. It's that special was way too strong. I've been playing since year 1, and before thorn was running rampant, special was always a problem. Shotguns and fusions had insane range, and Snipers weren't a huge deal until trials came out. The main problem was that special was very powerful, and ammo for it was so readily available that people would use it as a primary. They needed to limit special ammo from the get-go, but now everyone is accustomed to this broken system and complain when Bungie tries to remedy it. Unfortunately, the multi-player was poorly designed, and there's no hope for balance. I mean just look at icebreakers and sidearm running rampant.
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Nope pulse rife need to keep that nerf unless they dial back the range on them so they only work in very close to close range. Pulse rife need a range nerf they work better than scout rifes and that's a problem.
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2 RepliesEdited by StoicSpartan118: 4/21/2017 1:02:52 PMThe main problem I see is that the map design on most maps doesn't support medium to long ranges very well. As well as there is too much cover on the maps, a smart player would utilize it to catch someone off guard, in that situation it's better to pair up with a close range weapon like autos and hand cannons because they are more forgiving in their intended ranges. Weapons like pulse and scout rifles are slightly harder to use because you're almost always never in their sweet spot (pulse rifles even more so) as you're in close range almost all the time and it's difficult to get in there because of too much cover is in the way. Matter in fact, i don't believe the primary ttk really supports the amount of cover on certain maps as well as movement. Note: I'm not really asking for a buff/nerf but I would want to play on maps that support more class of weapons instead of one or two types. What are everyone else's thoughts?
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1 Reply[quote]The problem is that Bungie doesn't see that special should be used in special situations. Like they were in year one...[/quote] While I agree with your post, it's kind of hard to read that with a straight face knowing that the Felwinter's Lie existed.
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I'm curious as to where you've seen anyone using a shotgun lately... lol...
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Here is the rule of thumb, the fact and the truth! You use your special mainly and use primary occasionally. Try anything other than this at your own risk and don't come run crying on the forums because somebody that you shot from behind with 6-7 round from TLW and have a sliver of health just happens to turn around and out gun you with a Wormwood.
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Special should be special. Spawn us with 8 shotgun ammo, 10 sniper bullets, 8 for fusions or 50 for sidearms and that's it, if you used them you cant get more. Make them special.
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If I base my play style off of constantly putting myself in those specific situations where a special shines, I'll inevitably use my special more. This is the core problem with everyone's argument that is similar to yours. You have it ingrained in you that Primaries should be used more than specials at all times no matter what. I'm not saying I disagree with your solution, but I am saying I disagree with how you got there.
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3 RepliesI agree with this, with an addendum: a special weapon should be RELIABLE, but it should be problematic to use it like a primary. Best way to deal with this is to reduce the overall supply (make chests spawn less ammo, less often), but allow the player to keep what he or she has upon death (failing this allow them to keep three rounds or so, to keep the weapon functional). I oppose most nerfs, but could live with a range reduction on shotguns. However, I think that Lord of Wolves and Chaperone should be buffed. These two guns, because of their nature, should be longer-ranged than other shotguns.
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13 RepliesSpecials like shotguns, fusions and snipers are understandable as ohk weapons. I don't think sidearms should be as strong as they are now. I think they are suppose to be used to pick enemies off that already have low health. They are suppose to be cleanup kill weapons. So if they go against any primary wielder with full health they should lose. That's my opinion though. I'm not saying nerf sidearms. Buff primaries!
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And make COD TTK. The game is the best it's ever been. I think you should get 1 clip back from death if you had that and if you had less however much you add, as well as a major nerf to sidearm damage making them only viable as a follow-up
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Thank u
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4 RepliesWhy do people persist on telling others how to play? Listen dude, people like using Shotguns You like using primaries. For some reason, you've got the delusion that you should be able to make people play your way. Stop that shit
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1 ReplyBuff primary weapons up to the point that they are most used not by ammo restrictions but by capability and reliability. What happens to special weapons? During the latter half of 2015, mostly around the House of Wolves period, primary weapons were very closely shut out by a dominance from special weapons. Only a very few [i]exotic[/i] and legendary primary weapons were seen on masse in comparison to the horde of special weapon usage. Why use primary weapons when specials did a much better job? The same goes in reverse. Why use special weapons if your primary weapon will be just as effective and can effectively shutdown any special weapon use, and with no worries on ammo limitations? There isn't really a line here. It's more a muddled grey zone where special weapons and primary weapons blend together and the problem comes down to how exactly players should be suggested into using either set. Do you enforce primary weapon usage by making special weapons act as 'power-ups'; temporary boosts to a players arsenal that most likely won't last long (barring player skill in surviving)? Do you set a restriction on a total amount available to enforce a more rationalized mind-set to stem players from abusing them? Destiny Crucible has had a plethora of issues since day 1. The moment Lord Shaxx open the gates to the Crucible, there have been issues left and right. Some have persisted and some have been squashed out. Primary versus Special is one issue that has not been squashed out.
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Completely Agree
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I would argue that Hand cannons cant be used at mid range period unless you have rangefinder AND rifled AND you hit 2+ headshots. But yeah, you're pretty much right, primaries suck so no one wants to use them, im sure bungie will figure out a way to nerf shotguns and handcannons again though, they're just a special kind of stupid. And you know what they say, you can't fix stupid.
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3 RepliesNerfing side arms just like shotguns sounds dumb. U should just get used to the way the game is, because it's solutions like this that make the game trash.
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4 RepliesGood start on ur post but bad solutions.
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How are specials any different from primary when the "special" situation is just a range category encompassed by some primary? Just give people ammo to use them again, buff primaries to be competitive and let everyone go nuts with special aka "second slot primary" again. Bungie has spent the entirety of Destiny finding a niche usage for all weapons and maybe PvP is more balanced but it is also less fun alongside PvE as a result. It is okay to make unbalanced gear in a game that focuses on gear acquisition. For modes that require more balance, there should be restrictions in what can come in, gear standardization or tiers based on gear rating. None of these things should be shocking since the gaming industry has implemented like solutions for decades...
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If primaries are worth aping with again, I don't think special usage will be any problem whatsoever no matter what you do to it. Make HCs worth using in an aggressive playstyle over sidearms and shotguns. Make scouts and pulses worth using at long ranges over snipers. Autos need to do more than tickle people. Added note: special ammo should also be available, more or less, for those special situations. But it's not when we need it to be. That's how lazy this change is, and how similarly lazy the "but specials should be for SPECIAL situations so this change is GUD" excuse is.
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1 ReplyNice post- definitely worth a bump
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Specials like shotguns, fusions and snipers are understandable as ohk weapons. I don't think sidearms should be as strong as they are now. I think they are suppose to be used to pick enemies off that already have low health. They are suppose to be cleanup kill weapons. So if they go against any primary wielder with full health they should lose.
