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Edited by iDovahBear:
3/27/2017 12:25:47 AM
58
Why This Meta IS In Fact Worse Than The Shotgun Meta
The Shotgun Meta came about because everything's lethality and consistency was nerfed to a point where Shotguns became incredibly potent in comparison. But the bottom line of this Meta is that, no matter how unfairly suited it was towards anyone not running a Shotgun, it didn't reject other playstyles.
[b]This new Meta rejects the vast majority of playstyles by enforcing Special Ammo loss on death.[/b]
It is worse because it punishes players for not wanting to conform to a handful of playstyles. The Shotgun Meta never did that. In fact, by making Shotguns Meta they made Sidearms and Fusion Rifles SHINE!
[b][i]Without having to buff them!!!!!*[/i][/b]
[i][b]*[/b]This is one of the few times Josh Hamrick's philosophy of nerfing surrounding competition to make an underused archetype shine through actually pulled through for the players in a meaningful way.[/i]
Players were actually starting to use them over Shotguns, hell I even ran a Fusion in Trials effectively because my enemies weren't relying on being halfway across the map from me during a Trials match for the first time since Year 2 started. It also nurtured Snipers because it increased the frequency of finding a target in your sights who couldn't return fire from the optimal range; you could use this to your advantage, this crutch of theirs was actually less pressure for snipers from extended ranges.
The Special Ammo loss on death killed the majority of Shotguns, Fusion Rifles and even most Snipers. It trivialized over 90% of the existing players' Special options and made the least favorite ammo conserving weapons meta while bullying the competition out of the gaming experience by the Developer's forceful hands.
There will never not be a time that ammo conserving weapons won't be used if we keep this change, and the game is worse for it because this creates a meta game reaction from players to covet ammo sustaining perks. Even if picking up Special seems like it should work fine math wise, here's the problem:
You are trying to get the player to settle for a disadvantage that breaks their chances at being competitive, which Bungie has known is against our very nature. Thus they did limit our actual viable choices down to less than 10% of existing options with full awareness. They just decided they didn't care.
I think it's obvious it's an attempt to make their 'legacy' game lose popularity in the wake of a new release, but I think they realized how difficult it will be to retain players whose voices they constantly refuse to acknowledge. I believe this change was done not with the intent to fix the game or appease players, but to degrade the quality of the experience. I believe it's a huge conflict of interest they've articulated themselves, in fact I'd be surprised if it wasn't premeditated.
[b]tl;dr[/b] [i]Shotgun Meta made rogue/underused weapons viable by simply existing, and it didn't try to overtly punish players who didn't conform to the meta. This meta is vitriolic towards any players wanting to make the independent decision of what weapons they want to use without some meta factor swaying them.[/i]
[b]My only question is: [i]If you disagree, how can you? Explain for me why this doesn't make the current Ammo Conservation Meta worse than even the infamous Shotgun Meta y'all really have a hard time forgetting?[/i][/b]
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1 ReplyIt sounded like a rather legitimate and meaningful feedback rant (rant not used to mean pointless complaining, but meaning honest and emotional constructive criticism) until you got to the last paragraph which took a complete conspiracy theory spinmetal hat turn for the worst. Bungie doesn't want to kill off Destiny 1. It still has months to go. And the vast majority of players who buy Destiny 2 will be Destiny 1 players. And they'll make that decision based on their experiences in Destiny 1. They're not going to buy the new game if the last one left a bad taste in their mouth and Bungie knows that. They're not tying to put themselves out of business. The simple fact is, fixing this meta is hard. Bungie designed a poorly balanced game, and short of rewriting how every weapon and ability works, it's not getting fixed. This is as close to a primary weapon meta as we are going to get. Do you still get sidearm'd down? Yes. But I also have gotten sniped and shotgun rushed and even occasionally vooped. The real test is whether you can adjust to counter it. This is a game of counters. If you're getting side armed down, switch off your hand cannon and throw on a scout or pulse and kill them before they're in optimal side arm range. You have to counter them or they'll just counter you. That's how the game works. But if you just want to use the same weapon despite the fact that people are hard countering it, then just get used to dying. That's just how the game works.
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With the shotgun meta, you could learn to counter them.
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6 RepliesBump, been telling people use voopers throughout the last update. I loved destroying shotgunners with vacancy, still love using it but it's the most punishing. They need to revert or rework the special ammo, the coming update is neat but the bottom line doesn't change. Sidearms will be better if only as a fallback, icebreaker and nlb will still be in wide use.
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1 ReplyHow to fix the special ammo economy in PvP Upon death your equipped special weapon's magazine is filled from reserves, the remainder is dropped in a green ammo brick for the enemy team. Sidearms keep 1 full magazine in reserve, the rest is dropped. Picking up a dropped ammo brick gives 1-2 rounds of special ammo depending on the impact of your equipped special weapon. Adjust highest impact shotguns to have 3 rounds in the magazine, just like highest impact snipers. As impact decreases, ammo magazine increases to a maximum of 7 for all special weapons. Revert the aim assist and mid air accuracy nerfs on Shotguns. This balances lethality against ammo capacity, where as one decreases the other increases also makes players decide if they want alot of shots of a less lethal archetype or fewer shots of a more lethal one.
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I agree. I started using a Saladins vigil to beat shotgunners. Worked rather well. Then I lost all my ammo.
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It's the worse cause it doesn't give the player freedom!
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This meta is trash
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3 RepliesThis meta bores the crap out of me. Half the time people just post up on spawn with ice breakers and never come out until they have a super. BORING!
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This current state of Crucible is very boring to me by comparison.
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Few games I've played have been great. Auto loaded special helped a lot as well as limited sidearms. No lands are doing well if they don't get hit and icebreaker I'm just not seeing much. I far prefer this. I don't want the old 0.6-0.4 primary ttk.
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There is nothing worse than the shotgun meta, sniper meta comes close but not quite.
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I actually took off for like three months, but I'm still getting used to the meta the two weeks of coming back. I've always been an agro player who preferred sidearms against the shotgun meta. Now I feel like if I'm not using a hand cannon, MIDA, or likewise good range weapon than I'll be dead before I'm in range of anyone. This coming auto rifle buff might help.
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5 RepliesEdited by Falcochio1706: 3/28/2017 3:46:12 PMYou could say that the lack special has caused the use of sticky grenades to increase because they can be used more or less like a special weapon, which has also caused there to be more bitching about stickies. However, I do believe this special change was a step in the right direction, but it did completely over-stepped where it should have been.
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Well the "GOOD" thing is that nobody complain about shotgun or sniper rifle anymore, FANTASTIC JOB BUNGO, VERY PROUD OF YOU!!!
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well said!🤓
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7 RepliesThe main issue was that people automatically switched to secondary weapons as their primary weapon. That by definition is incorrect. We should be primarily using our [i]primary weapons[/i] It boils down to TTK. Secondary weapons have a higher TTK than primary weapons, so people naturally gravitate towards those. Trying to land multiple shots on a moving target, while moving yourself is difficult, so we naturally move towards what is easiest which is more damage with fewer shots. Throw in unpredictable internet connections and the frustration mounts. People want faster TTK against their foes, but more survivability for themselves. Part of what I enjoy most about Destiny PvP is the fact that I can get hit, and survive - most mulitplayer games aren't like that. If you get the first hit you win because they are dead by the second hit.
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Well said man.
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1 ReplyBut it wasn't [i]fun[/i]
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Nah. I like this better. I use a primary as a primary and only use the secondary when I'm in CQC or panic. I die a lot less now.
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10 RepliesI don't like shotguns. I like to use my handcannon/autorifle and snipe. In the shotgunmeta in 6vs6 most people just spawned->rushed with shotgun->got a kill-> died-> spawn->run->die->spawn->run->kill->die - you had a shotgun in your face every 15 seconds. I hated that. In the shotgunmeta in trials I could not get to the lighthouse, because everyone rushed with a shotgun. Now after the shotgunmeta I can snipe again and go to the lighthouse every 2-3tickets. That's why I like the patch. I like my LDR, Longbow, 1kys, event horizon, but I also like Icebreaker, No Land Beyond and other primaries, so the special ammo draught is no problem for me. +in 6vs6 there is green ammo everywhere, so I still use those legendary snipers and other secondaries, like queenbreakers bow, pocket infinity TL/DR: I don't like shotungs, I like the patch
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31 Replies"This new Meta rejects the vast majority of playstyles by enforcing Special Ammo loss on death." LOL.............................. The shotgun meta was the LEAST dynamic meta - there was only ONE playstyle. I stopped reading your post there.....
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2 RepliesEdited by RPColten: 3/28/2017 3:25:33 AMThis is a very strong topic of discussion for some people. I'm just going to open this argument by stating that I have played Destiny since it was released and I have been witness to all of the sandbox changes made. I'm not saying these things blind. I strongly disagree on the idea that a meta that glorifies use of instant one-hit-kill weapons to be favourable to one that punishes players for simply dying. That is what this issue comes down to. How much of an issue is it to die and lose the minimal amount of ammo you had stacked. Ammo crates spawn rapidly enough on a 60-second basis and there are multiples across the maps. Collecting ammo doesn't involve 'camping' or cowering in a corner. Acquiring ammo for any special weapon is not difficult nor is it tedious, and the ammo gets automatically loaded into the magazine on pick-up. Do sidearms get exempted from this and save ammo on death? Yes they do. However, they are not powerful weapons and need to be used be a competent player to even be able to be competent weapons. They spawn with very limited ammo (one magazine) and have very limited range for the fastest possible kills. They are (I should say 'were') not commonly used for a reason. There are other better options available, such as any average primary or special weapon. Sidearms are 'backups'. They're clean-up tools on the side. Any player who is going to use one at length is going to be at a disadvantage. Can the current state of Crucible cause some strife for some players? Yes it may. It also will most likely make some other players much more satisfied. The best thing here is to come to an understanding on where problems stem from and try to find a solution to it. Both the previous Crucible experience AND this one both may have issues. I personally don't think Crucible can or even should be 'balanced'. Just saying.
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You hit the nail right on the head, its almost as bad as the bloom change to handcannons. Two handcannons nerfed the entire weapon type But in this case. Use of shotguns afeccted everyplaystyle and it sucks. Just because they are too stubborn to see they created the lack of counters
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Honestly, I'm kind of sad they didn't add an "Action Sack" style playlist to crucible with this final update. They could have very easily made a lot of the meta complaints moot (outside of trials) by making a fun hopper where the type of available ammo changes every game/round/few minutes.
