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1/18/2017 4:08:02 PM
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Here's the thing. I REALLY got hooked on Destiny in Y1 because I loved running the raids. At one point, I was running 6 + raids a week with different teams, even when I couldn't get any rewards or drops. I just ran them to help others through. So when HoW didn't have a raid, I was thoroughly disappointed, and when Kings Fall was announced as the TTK raid, I was stoked.
I think Kings Fall is a fun raid to play. Sure, its not the VoG, but it was difficult, fun to play, challenging on many levels for a variety of players, and it was the first raid we figured out from back to front without any video aids or guides. But I have two reasons why I hate it and don't have even close to as many completions as I do completions for the Y1 raids:
1. The WAY Kings Fall divides your teams power essentially makes it so that there is less team play. Sure, you are all on the same team, and you are all doing your part in order to help pass the raid challenges, but because of the mechanics of the raid works, in most instances, you can't really have a "buddy system" where people are always paired up with a teammate nearby to act as a fail safe. This puts more emphasis on a players ability to be able to survive on their own. And if you don't know where the threats are coming from, and nobody is watching your back, that is just a bad recipe overall in a raid.
2. The gear. Sure it LOOKS cool, but it totally sucks as far as raid gear goes. Cocoon would be a nice perk if it was an additional perk to a standardized perk tree like oracle disruptor is for the VoG weapons or Hive Disruptor is for the Crota weapons. But its not. It takes up a perk slot on the base perk tree, meaning that instead of three random perks you could have to improve your gun, your limited to TWO. And cocoon isn't that useful on guns that already have fast reloads.
In fact, all of the gear in Kings Fall, save the Heavy Machine Gun, are all utter trash. They're nothing more than infusion fuel. They're not top-of-the-PVE-world quality or even on par with vendor gear because of the way the perk slot works. This made it so that the rewards for completing kings fall were utterly inadequate and unfulfilling overall. Instead of feeling like you just conquered mount everest, you felt like you reached the top of the mountain, only to get kicked in the teeth because the loot was so bad.
I think Kings Fall is a great example of the reason why we need raid gear to be elite-tier loot. That raid was very hard to do if you did it blind. But once you figured it out, it was fun to do. There just wasn't any reason to play it. In the time you could run kings fall, you could have run a larger number of strikes and had many many more opportunities to get exotics OR strike-specific gear which by far surpassed anything offered in the raid.
That, plus the average completion time for Kings Fall was pretty high still, even at the end of the TTK era with LL at 335. Most people didn't wan't to spend the time it took to run the raid just to get crap rewards.
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Agreed. This was why I didn't run it much. I rate the raids as such.... Vault of Glass (challenging, amazing weapons) Wrath of the Machine (Pacing feels VoG like, Really like the armor perks, really like the weapons) Crota's End (Great weapons, really really short raid which made it fun, easy to complete with just 1 or 2 friends) King's Fall (longest raid, most challenging, jumping puzzles, bad loot, didn't enjoy it)
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I rate them in order of release, but I didn't play WoTM because I didn't buy RoI. I'm basing my comments largely on my review of the raid weapons through the weapon armory. I would rate them as follows: 1. VoG 2. Crota 3. Kings Fall I enjoyed all of the raids and they provided different challenge levels for players with different skill sets. What separates them is the sense of wonder and exploration AND the incentive to rerun them (the gear). We play raids for fun and for the challenge, but very few people want a challenge that does not provide an adequate reward. IMO, Bungie needs to totally rethink their philosophy with this game. They need to embrace its social nature and accept the fact that by now, people know its a social/multiplayer game and you CAN'T get the elite loot if you don't have friends to play with. And that's perfectly fine. If they wanted to do single player games that provided 100's of hours of entertainment, they could have made Destiny like Skyrim, Witcher 3, Fallout 4, etc. They didn't They chose to make a SOCIAL game.
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I think the point of cocoon was because of the way each encounter only had a small window for doing damage, so we needed as much time as possible for doing damage. So use primary until it runs out of ammo, don't reload, switch to special weapon etc. King's fall was my favourite raid, but I agree about the weapons needing to feel more, well just [i]more.[/i]
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Yeah they were only good when used in conjunction with other weapons, but the perk itself potentially lowered the DPS potential by taking the place of what could otherwise have been a DPS perk. Furthermore, Primaries just don't do enough damage to justify their use in that tiny DPS window. I would simply use my sniper or spindle and then switch to my Terminus when I ran out of ammo. I'm not asking for every single raid weapon to be godly like black hammer was, but they need to be really good and at least SOME of them need to be a notch above what is available outside of the raid. IMO, they made raid gear such trash because they wanted people to do the raid to get their light level up and nothing more. They wanted casuals and solo players to feel like they weren't missing out on anything if they couldn't do the endgame content. Bottom line is Bungie DIDN'T embrace the social/multiplayer nature of this game and screwed the pooch when it comes to endgame rewards. They did slightly better with WoTM, but the raid gear is only on par with gear available outside of the raid, or worse. VoG gear is a good comparison to WoTM gear because VoG gear is also tuned/niche for doing the raid. The difference is WoTM gear doesn't have that + factor that VoG weapons DID have. And I think part of this is their struggle with Luke Smith's bone-headed decision to remove elemental primaries rather than to rethink how they implemented them so they could have them AND expand elemental primary availability. As a result of their failure to give WoTM gear a +1 factor, only 4% of XBOX players have completed the raid, and virtually nobody is running or rerunning the raid. Even though WoTM gear is BETTER, nobody cares because its not the BEST. Which raid gear needs to be in order to incentivize people to run and rerun it.
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Now, I'm someone who generally thinks exotics shouldn't be the best gear. However, I think raid gear should be. I mean, we literally kill gods for it. I think the order should be like this: Common Quest commons - currently only khvostov and husk of the pit, but if there are ever more... Uncommon Rare Vendor legendaries - god rolls should still be possible, but shouldn't make vendor gear better than other rarities Strike legendaries - these should have perfect stats, and god rolls should still be possible. So for example, does not bow should have a higher mag and range than vendor low rof auto rifles. Exotics - perfect stats again, and no better than strike legendaries per se, but with a perk that gives them a specified role making them vastly superior in a given situation, but not everywhere like gjallarhorn was initially. Raid/arena legendaries - undoubtedly and inarguably the best weapons in the game. The reason vog and ce weapons were "overused" is not just because of the burn, they were also given perfect stats and great perks. Now, I wouldn't want them game breakingly good or to be always better than exotics or strike legendaries, but with what we have to do to get them...
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I mostly agree with you, but I disagree with regards to exotics. we are only allowed to equip ONE exotic, vs as many legendary weapons/armor pieces as we want. So IMO, they need to justify the fact that we can only equip one. This generally means that they need to be stronger than legendary gear, which would include raid gear. However, I ALSO think that exotics need to be striated into tiers so that it is clear that lower tier exotics are available from a wider variety of sources, but as you aim for higher and higher tier exotics, you need to do harder and harder content, with the elite level exotics only being available from endgame content. I also think they should be more rare, as they were in Y1, rather than as common as they are now with the use of 3oC. And the elite tier exotics should not be quest items.
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The issue with exotics is that their definition within the game is not clear cut. Should they be immensely powerful? Should they be just unique? Should they fulfill a role? Should they just look pretty? One of my main wishes for destiny 2 is that their purpose is more defined.
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It was immensely clear. In Y1, Bungie wanted them to FEEL overpowered, but not BE overpowered, which they also acknowledged that they would have to tread a pretty fine line. However, people complained about exotic weapon power in PVP, which lead to their revised philosophy of them only being "unique." However, I think most people agree that they would rather exotics be more powerful than they would want them to be "unique." In order to have that system though, we would have to either give up balance in PVP altogether or separate PVP from PVE balance. For the record, I'd be down for either. I think the notion of balance in a loot grinder doesn't necessarily make sense because the nature of the game is grinding for loot. Someone will always find something better than you have. The trick is to find what works for YOU and for you to really grow and learn how to use the weapons you like. Of course, that would also necessitate getting rid of the rotating meta, but that's a different discussion.
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[quote]It was immensely clear. In Y1, Bungie wanted them to FEEL overpowered, but not BE overpowered, which they also acknowledged that they would have to tread a pretty fine line.[/quote] I expected this response because it's the one I always get. The truth is, it was never as clear as people remember it. Yes, there were more powerful exotics in year 1 than now, but they weren't all top tier weapons of immense power. Ice breaker, invective, hawkmoon, bad juju, red death, truth and probably more were not powerful weapons. They were no more powerful than many legendaries. Yet they are still and still were back then considered exotic because of what they brought to the table. [quote]However, people complained about exotic weapon power in PVP, which lead to their revised philosophy of them only being "unique."[/quote] This is the issue. We want powerful gear in our own hands but not in our opponents' hands. We need as a community to decide whether we want powerful equipment or not. [quote]However, I think most people agree that they would rather exotics be more powerful than they would want them to be "unique." In order to have that system though, we would have to either give up balance in PVP altogether or separate PVP from PVE balance.[/quote] Or, put some kind of limit on the weapons we can take into the crucible. I would not want pvp and pve balance to be separated for the same reason Bungie don't. I think balance in pvp should either be given up, or exotics can't be taken into pvp activities. [quote]For the record, I'd be down for either. I think the notion of balance in a loot grinder doesn't necessarily make sense because the nature of the game is grinding for loot. Someone will always find something better than you have. The trick is to find what works for YOU and for you to really grow and learn how to use the weapons you like.[/quote] I agree with this point. (Points?)
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[quote]Or, put some kind of limit on the weapons we can take into the crucible. I would not want pvp and pve balance to be separated for the same reason Bungie don't. I think balance in pvp should either be given up, or exotics can't be taken into pvp activities.[/quote] This is the hard part because some exotics were clearly designed for PVP. Patience/Time is not a great PVE sniper (its only average in most cases), but it truly excels as a dedicated long-range rifleman's weapon in PVP (and it's balanced because it lacks quickscope ability, one of the major issues during the sniper meta. Nobody complains of P/T being OP). Should it be banned from the area it shines in most because its exotic? I don't think that would be a good idea at all. Another example of a primarily PVP exotic is First Curse. It's actually an INCREDIBLE PVP weapon if you use it right and play with a conservative playstyle (and use it in conjunction with 3rd eye). Should it be banned? I don't see anyone complaining that it is OP - in fact, most people ask for it to be buffed. There's a laundry list of exotics which are well balanced, even for PVP purposes. So a blanket exotic ban doesn't work. Would a banned list of exotics work? I don't think that would resolve anything either, because people would complain that their favorite exotic is banned while others are not. And where would we draw the line? OG Suros pre-nerf was an awesome weapon in PVE AND PVP, mainly because it gave you the utility of an AR in cqc, and the functionality of a Scout Rifle when ADS. It dominated PVP for a long time because of that ability before it was nerfed. Should it be banned in PVP? I've considered a banned list, and I used to think it was a good idea, and it MAY be a good idea if the threshhold for banning was very high, such as "the function of the weapon breaks the rules intended to be in place for crucible" such as when they nerfed the special ammo we spawned in with and got from a box. Icebreaker was a way to get around that rule. The problem is, so few weapons would actually be banned under this kind of scheme that it really wouldn't have a huge impact. Honestly, I'd rather Bungie just throw balance to the wind. Make every gun as good as they were when they were the meta, and let player choice and map selection drive loadouts. Let whiners complain (because polls on the topic show people aren't willing to give up exciting/fun weapons to attain balance anyways) and let the PVP "balance" settle in. People will adapt and learn how to play efficiently with what they like in the long run (something the current rotating meta system doesn't allow for).
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I do think that is the preferable option for everyone. In destiny 2 I think nerfs should only happen in the direst of circumstances such as OG vex mythoclast instead of people asking for it to be nerfed. Honestly, the meta we are in now is largely because of map design - most maps favour close quarters. If destiny 2 is going to be a complete restart - maybe that's the best thing. If that does happen, let balance resolve itself, at least for the most part.
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Edited by DonnyVBaybay: 1/18/2017 6:11:54 PMI was about to comment Cocoon is great on the Terminus... then you commented that they are trash except the Terminus, and you are right. I also, agree that loot from the raid should be elite, not game breaking but elite. I have a Genesis Chain, great pve gun, I like it a lot. The rest of these weapons are not that great. Ive seen the shotgun in pvp a bit and the fusion rifle is fun in pve. I feel like there's no reason for me to do wrath of the machine, now that I have the only gun I want from it.
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[quote]I also, agree that loot from the raid should be elite, not game breaking but elite.[/quote] I agree, but the raid gear needs that +1 factor that makes them superior to guns available OUTSIDE of the raid or they will not adequately reward those who run the raid, and we will have no incentive to repeatedly run the raid. VoG weapons are a great example of guns that were niche and tuned for the raid, but had that +1 factor over other weapons (they had elemental burns on primary weapons). Same thing with Crota Guns, although their raid perks often were useful OUTSIDE the raid as well (hive disruptor, wizard stunning, shooting through knight dark shields). IMO, Y1 raid gear wasn't game breaking, but it DID give that +1 factor that made them better than gear found outside of the raid. If it is determined that elemental primaries limit weapon choice, the answer is to make it so that you can scrap raid guns for their elemental cores which can be infused into other kinetic primaries. But it needs to start with the raid guns. The raid guns should be intrinsically desirable, and the cores should be a secondary factor for granting the ability to upgrade non-raid kinetic weapons. This would add a use for those 4th and 5th fatebringers we often got after running the VoG over 100+ times. Bottom line, Raid gear is endgame gear. It should be elite tier. It should be the best PVE gear you can get. And it should help reduce grind so that other mundane activities are less grindy. Taking the tediousness out of the grind in this game actually ADDS replayability to this game. It makes running the same strikes fun, because you get a sense of power progression, rather than the sense that nothing you will do will change your experience in the strikes, regardless of what light level you are.
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Exactly. I think Genesis Chain is a great example. Great gun, solid nice perk. They should have put the pulse in the grasp archetype, everyone would be doing the raid lol
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Honestly, before I quit the game and High RoF pulse rifles like Grasp of Malok were ruling crucibabies, I went and ground for an Oversoul Edict. It was a fully automatic version of the Grasp. Incredibly underrated weapon IMO. However, I don't think people grind for raid weapons for PVP purposes. They want a gun that is going to reduce their grind in PVE primarily (or at least I know I do and most of my group does). People who raid 3x a week or more typically aren't the same kind of people who play PVP nonstop for 3-4 hours a day.
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Thats the thing though. I prefer pvp, but I do the nightfalls for skeleton keys and try to a god grasp of malok. If they had great raid pvp weapons available, more pvp players would do the raid.
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But i like my smite of merain that has firefly 😟
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Its okay, but its not better than other PR's in its archetype. Mainly because cocoon takes the place of a larger number of perks which could be better, considering PR's have decent reload speed. For instance, Headseeker, Outlaw, Rangefinder, glass half full, third eye, any number of stability perks would all be better than cocoon.
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Jesus christ chill
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I am chill. I'm just pointing out the facts of why Kings Fall wasn't considered a better raid.
