I'm going to try to keep this first post neat as there is a lot of talk about shoguns in PVP....again.
I'm a Day 1 player and hopped into the forums maybe about 4 months in.
Let's all be honest with ourselves. There hasn't been a time where shotguns were not complained about in PVP.
Range, Impact, perks, range, perks. Over and over again.
If it's not the shotguns directly it's movement abilities tied to 'Closing the Gap'.
Blink, Shadestep, Twilight Garrison, Blink, Titan Skate (Not touched 'yet')
These things alone have gone back and forth in a vicious cycle of nerfs and the problem is people will never be satisfied with Shotguns.
Let's just pretend a shotgun nerf is imminent. It would likely be something to do with their range again. Do you know what the next issue would be?
Shotgun/Melee. Specifically Warlock and Hunter to a degree.
People are always going to find what kills the fastest and gravitate. Especially in Close quarters.
Guess what, there are more close quarters opportunities in this game that there are other ranges. Shotguns will ALWAYS dominate that. Always.
Bungie's own Goals for the weapon - [b]Shotgun is most effective at very close range[/b]
Is that not what the shotgun is right now? [b]ONLY [/b]effective at close ranges?
So for the complainers, how close is "the right" close for you? Right now the right gun with the right perks has a max range of about 12 feet give or take.
How much closer do you want it? 8feet? 5 feet? 2? Is any of that going to change the "Closing the gap" thing? No it's not.
Another of Bungie's goals is for weapons to not infringe (too much) on other weapons effective ranges.
In Y1 I can understand why they reduced the range. ARs and even fusions couldn't compete. Once the range was normalized there's really been no infringement.
Now, people want to say that the "close the gap" thing changes this but I disagree. Getting yourself into effective range can happen with any weapon. It's just more obvious with shotguns because it's a 1HK.
The real issue there is not letting them close the gap. You have to counter player movement just as you do their weapons.
People are also saying that this uptick of Shotgun prowess is because Snipers are under performing.
Compared to what? When they were [b]over performing[/b] before the last changes? When the insufficient predictable flinch was allowing people to get kills while being hosed by primary fire? Is that what it's being compared to? C'mon son. That's about the most Sniper bias viewpoint there is right now.
All the while shotguns were [u]still only effective[/u] within the close ranges yet people still complained about them.
Now less people are complaining about OP snipers and shotguns are still making people loose their minds.
We need to stop the cycle people. Shotguns, by Bungies own definition, are fine.
And so are snipers now BTW
TL:DNR
Shotguns (for a while now) are ONLY effective in the closest ranges. People will continue to try to 'close the gap' to make best use of the 1HK potential at the closest ranges.
Nerfing them more will only result in continuing the cycle of nerfing their power or movement tactics/abilities
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Remove Matador from the game
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Movement is not the problem and neither are shotguns. Primaries not being able to compete with a shotgun is the problem. Theres a reason shotguns dont dominate in other fps that have just as high mobility and thats because a primary can shut a shotty down. Im gonna leave this here for you to look at. I copied it from a post by another guardian. No im not saying shottys are OP. Go through every gametype and look at whats on top. Its fuçking crazy lol. There are definitely way to many shottys running around the crucible that much is for sure. Buff all primary damage. http://guardian.gg/en/weapon-stats?platform=1&start=2016-10-28&end=2016-11-01&mode=14&activity=0
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No on cares that you are a day one player
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For Snipers do you want them to under perform or Over perform? Snipers need to be buffed and statistically the only game mode they were oppressive in is Trials and people are gonna play like a pu$$y there anyways.
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just make bigger more open area maps tadaa problem solved.
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9+ nerfs on Shotguns. Yet people are still whining about them being Op. If after 2 years and 9 nerfs you are still complaining about the same shit. [b][u]You are the problem.[/u][/b] On a side note snipers have always, [b]until now[/b], had some ridiculous efficiency. Year 1 was Final round and Armor piercing rounds going through the entire map. Year 2 has been non-existent flinch and Luck in the chamber. Now they are actually doing what snipers are supposed to do. Fire before fired upon.
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Shotguns are fine in PvP. They're waaaaay OP in Trials where that one kill matters so much more.
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Edited by Trill_0012: 10/31/2016 7:59:21 AMEdit -blam!-ing hate my android: If shotguns get anymore nerfed they just need to remove them from the game. They already suck in pve. Switching is slower, aiming slower, reloading omfg slower. What else can be done to them to make them worse for pve players? air bullets? Almost like the..... the devs dont know how to balance anything.
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People use snipers all the time for PVE. Fusions have [b]no[/b] consistency. Hardly anyone likes side arms. Shotguns are simply more fun to play with. My shotgun barrel has to be in an opponents eyeball to get a 1HK, but the shoot + punch combo is pretty satisfying. The only thing I would like to see changed is fusion rifle consistency. It pisses me off when I'm killing people at a reasonable range for half a match and then all of a sudden, I can barely take a shield down from 15' away. [b][i]Buuuurrrrrrrrrrr[/i][/b].... ??? [i]Cha chick[/i] - [b]Boom[/b]
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the truth is shotguns are deadly and powerful because the maps are so small, and the movement is so quick and easy snipers had to adapt to 'close range' as would be described for them, which obviously people didn't like being sniped that close, a flinch nerf was necessary (coming from a sniper main) but bungo has gone overkill. Snipers are now a DETRIMENT to your team, they offer little benefits to what they used too, like super killing etc, but they had this power removed, flinch doubled, an already useless perk nerfed, aim assist nerfed and damage nerfed, as well as handling and scope nerfs, is that fair? Shotguns had a small range and handling nerf, as well as shot package being removed, which is completely fair enough because the perk was broken.
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Great post.
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With the given map sizes and how you are able to close the gap, the high impact shotguns do have too much range. I use a shotgun more than anything just not the high impact ones. Even if the nerf them to the ground I'm still gonna use one. I think they shouldn't buff the primaries that would be way too many tweaks with how many archetypes there are, ttk etc. I agree with the issue of the way players close the gap but instinctively I trust, players feel how the range should effect them and what the impact should be from said range. Every time I get hit by a matador theres that moment of surprise even when you've embedded the 1hk range into your head you're like "Really, from that far?". They should decrease impact and put a bit more of a spread on the shot. Possibly adjust the warlocks melee to compensate....that range is a lil much.
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Shotguns should literally be for when the person is close enough to touch... otherwise nobody will use other close range alternatives... if u dont believe me go and look at the statistics for this weeks trials... most used weapon is matador closely followed by party crasher.... tell me thats not broken when shotguns are beating primarys in usage statistics....
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So. . .Nerf Fusions?
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Yes that's fine. But what's not fine is the problem of people running around with specials as primaries. With the ammo nerf hardly affecting PvP, and most primaries underperforming against most specials (with some exceptions) it's allowing people to never switch from their special to primary weapon without repercussions. Specials should be used for special occasions, while primaries should be used primarily. That is hardly the case (though there are exceptions).
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At this point its more of a map design problem then a shotgun problem. All 3 of the maps released in RoI are very easy to shotgun on
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Edited by CobraMate: 10/30/2016 7:02:51 AMI think not allowing shotgun users to slide would be great. Guns affect your slide and jumps. I think if those were added pvp would be a lot more interesting and everyone wouldn't be using the same shit. And us auto ppl wont have to worry about a hoe running with a shotgun from 20 feet away and then sliding and one shot. The amount of times it only had to take literally ONE MORE BULLET for me to kill a shotgunner after they put one bullet in me, when i shoot the crap out of them from a distance but I end up dying, is discerning. They shouldn't even be able to reach me!!!!! Lol the struggles for autos is real! Either reduce rate of fire on all shotties or make it - no sliding when heavies or shotguns are in hand. And jumping is reduced when heavies are in hand. Am i trash? Well i used to be top 1% with a 2kd and now im top 2% with a 1.7kd (1% in some stuff still but who cares) cuz i stopped playing for a year...so mayb. But i dont think i should EVER lose a battle with an auto rifle to a person with a shotgun in open space when im LIGHTING THEM UP BEFORE they even pull their trigger.
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Supremacy has brought back the aggressive play style we used to see all the time. It carries into regular crucible too, and I love it.
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my problem is that you can literally walk through my bullets and press RT once and kill me, negating any sort of tactical advantage I had. Using autorifles that ARENT doctrine class is a joke. The fact that I can start shooting you from a medium distance with an auto and STILL lose a gunfight because you walked up and pressed RT is ridiculous.
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The shotguns in Destiny are awful. They are inconsistent. They have rng shots. Don't believe me. Go to a private match with one of your friends and stand 8 meters away using a ammo box as distance and watch the bullets rng constantly as you and your friend take turns firing. The distance at a max of 8 meters is a joke. Go run a shotgun in trials and try to close on someone with a Last Word or Pulse and get shut down. Luck in the chamber with range finder only increases max distance to 10 meters. Good luck on finding that bullet while you get mowed down. Invective and Chaperone are garbage right now because of the cry babies that have never played any other shooter besides Destiny and think they know balance. Go get shot by a hay maker and come back to Destiny and complain about over powered. Yes, shotgunners are annoying because they camp around a corner within the 8 meters to kill you. It's your fault for rushing with a nerfed primary in the first place knowing the outcome.
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Say that to the dude that shot me across the room with a Matador 64, Shotguns are -blam!-ing broken bro quit your moaning.
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All can be blamed on bad map design.
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Bungie will probably read this and nerf thorn again.
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I think the frustration is due to how quickly these players can close the gap to get the OHK vs how long it takes a player to kill the rusher with their primary. As long as it takes the average primary longer to kill a player than it takes the shotgunner to get in position for the OHK then shotguns will always be complained about.
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Shotguns aren't fine, but not in the manner everyone is talking about - and a lot of other weapons also aren't fine in the manner I 'm about to say; At the moment, [b]only High Impact Shotguns[/b] are viable/competitive. All other Archetypes are considered bad/garbage due to the increased TTK/Shots to Kill. Many other weapons suffer this. All Auto Rifles except for the occasional Low Impact Auto are considered trash - High Impact Pulses are considered trash - High Impact / Low Impact Scouts are considered trash - Low Impact / Medium Impact Hand Cannons are trash - low/medium impact Fusions are trash - and Sidearms need love. Now, nerfs don't need to entirely stop happening. Currently, the High Impact Shotguns should be toned down [b]only slightly[/b], and the other Shotgun archetypes should be buffed slightly to make them all competitively viable. Likewise with Hand Cannons and Pulse Rifles - one Archetype needs to be nerfed and the others buffed; Eyasluna Archetype Hand Cannons need to have their impact reduced to a 4HK (due to how fast they fire and how far their effective range goes.), while medium/low impact HCs need to have their effective range increased, and bloom decreased. Grasp/Dragon Archetype Pulses need to have their TTK increased, Pulses to Kill should be 4 or 5, and not 3. Grasp should be a 4PK, Hawksaw a 3PK, and Hopscotch a 2 1/2 PK. Bungie has been adapting their PvP changes as they years have gone on, and they've been adding more buffs than nerfs as of recently - but as many extremely good Destiny players have said; the current Meta / Weapon Archetype Meta that's going on is extremely toxic and very bad for the game, mainly Hand Cannons and Pulses.
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Solution: Remove the radar in the competitive scene. There has never been a successful competitive FPS with radar. Halo is the best example of a successful competitive FPS without radar until Halo 5 where the competitive scene for the most part died and the player base massively dropped due to the radar and other pointless game mechanics. This game is more like Halo than most people can probably imagine, once you take out the radar that is. What I have found by playing countless hours of inferno and playing with FizZoR (Twitch streamer) is that to win inferno you have to control the stronger side of the map which happens to be A flag spawn on every map due to Bungie's design. This is because the angles are more favorable on A side even on symmetrical maps which are still slightly different on each side. Shotguns are ineffective without the radar because shotgun players have to get close to you to deal enough damage. But with a good team and a A flag setup on inferno it is hard for shotgun players to get close to you before getting burst down by primaries. If you don't believe me and think I am talking a bunch of nonsense then watch this video: Explaining why shotguns are ineffective with radar and how A flag is better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3DQdAJaV4Y