{{
`${userDetail.user.displayName}${userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode ? `#${standardizeBungieGlobalCode(userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode)}` : ""}`}}
{{getUserClans()}}
Edited by Lost Sols:
8/17/2016 7:18:24 PM
25
Alternative ways to approach weapon balance in a game that shouldn't necessarily be balanced
So we have had [i]A LOT[/i] of discussions since Destiny launched on what we feel this game can or should be and a large number of those discussions have been on the topic of balance and how it applies/is applied to this game.
Since launch there has been a trend that has developed of Bungie periodically doing tuning passes (read: nerfs) to various weapons and abilities. We all know the history from Vex and Suros, the great AR debacle, Sunsingers, etc, up to present day where Striker Titans sit trembling waiting for the inevitable.
I have proposed to Bungie before that I don't believe this game should be perfectly balanced and that when they made the decision to allow us to take our own weapons and armor into the Crucible, that should have intrinsically come with the knowledge that it would be possible to be outgunned and there would be some onus on us the players to have to either try to find our own better gear or to compensate through strategy, map knowledge and an overall knowledge of how to maximize our classes and abilities.
Why Bungie didn't believe in that unique system they created, I don't know, but I do know the level of frustration that has resulted from each passing balance patch and I believe that there could still be better ways of approaching weapon performance in this game.
One focus for a lot of us as we look to how weapons perform vs each other has been effective range. It's something that Bungie have made adjustments to in some cases, but I believe it is something that is still not well enough defined and I think a large part of that problem is in perks that effectively let weapons of particular classes out-perform the intended class range.
We've seen this so often since launch and with so many weapons of various classes that the lines become blurred of what should be realistically used from where and at that point I think it becomes effectively impossible to truly balance anything.
But another problem is that there seems to be no rhyme or reason to things like magazine size, impact and stability. These are factors that should weigh much more into the quality of a particular weapon or classes performance as opposed to everything being about an equal TTK.
Magazine size for example makes no sense in Destiny. Scout rifles at launch had typical magazines between 20-25 rounds. Since HoW, that number has dropped to where I've typically had 10-13 rounds in the Scouts I use. Meanwhile Hand Cannons have seen theirs balloon and there are any number that can match or better various Scouts.
This is a problem.
Hand Cannons should be heavy hitters that are effective at close range, but they should be slow firing, slow reloading and limited in range. Scouts on the other hand should take more shots to kill, but they should have a distinct range advantage as well as larger magazines to compensate for the additonal shots to kill and for suppression.
Then there is the waste that are high impact/low RoF ARs. Again why would anyone ever use one of these when you can kill as fast or faster with a bullet hose and you get twice the magazine size?
There are so many calls for this subclass to have a damage buff or for bullet hoses to be nerfed, but if Bungie were to just raise the magazine size on them it would completely change how this class can perform and suddenly what they lack in TTK, they make up for in the ability to lay sustained fire.
Again with both Hand Cannons and ARs, there should be a distinct lack of range compared to Pulse Rifles and Scouts, but their advantage should be in how heavy they hit with HCs and the ability of ARs to lay that sustained attack.
In any case I believe that whatever the solutions are to balancing this game and keeping it fun at the same time, Destiny needs to be looked at differently than typical shooters and I think it's wrong to try to pigeon hole it into standard FPS tropes.
Destiny is anything but typical and each weapon and class has the ability to be unique and amazing and hopefully they get there one way or the other.
-
Edited by Slain: 8/19/2016 3:09:37 PMBump I don't know why they constantly seek closer balance, or why people make it their only goal. Sure some level of balance is appreciated (archetype definition), but at sone point we gotta stop and realize how futile of a prsopect it is to have a [i]balanced[/i] game. Balance is not meant to exist when there are different weapons, abilities, maps, and [b]classes[/b]. Balance is impossible when so many variables are at play. Ceteris Paribus, destiny would not be destiny.
-
I think one of the main reasons they "balanced" the way they did was because it extends play times. If you had an awesome AR in the beginning, you weren't really given any incentive to go out and grind for other weapon types (except exotics of course, but that's more for the collecting aspect). As soon as that AR nerf hit, it was time to grind for some scouts or whatever. It could be the reason vault space in the beginning was so limited. If you got a weapon type that wasn't "good", you'd delete it because there was no point in taking up space. Then they "balance" the weapons to make the underused weapons the go-to and you have to grind again. Just my theory though. I always look at every decision they make and go "hmmm... I wonder how this is going to make us grind more".
-
I wouldn't mind this if you could get all the guns for sure. I've been playing since launch and have never gotten a last word which even after nerfs is stupid good.
-
12 RepliesSols, I agree with almost everything you are saying, except this: [quote] Then there is the waste that are high impact/low RoF ARs. Again why would anyone ever use one of these when you can kill as fast or faster with a bullet hose and you get twice the magazine size? [/quote] I found a Shadow Price lying around in my vault with some amazing perks. Crowd Control, Life Support, and Perfect balance. Even though its a high Impact/low RoF AR, I've been using this weapon in the Iron Banner this week and in smaller maps, I have been getting a LOT of kills with this particular weapon. It's quite an amazing gun. The way I see it, high impact, low RoF AR/PR's are probably not as good as their higher RoF brethren without having higher quality rolls on the perks. Since the other weapons can make up for lack of damage/precision with bigger mag sizes and volume of fire, they are more forgiving than the higher impact models. But if you can consistently land headshots with these weapons, they can be surprisingly good. Other than that, agree with you 100%. I see a sad trend with Destiny. They keep whittling down what makes every weapon, character, and their abilities unique in favor of migration towards a more generic skill set, stat set (armor, recovery, and agility), and perkless PVP combat. I think this is the wrong direction for the game to go in because class/subclass differences, weapon differences, hell, even perk differences should be celebrated in this game. I had a debate with a guy in another thread a few days ago regarding rerolling. He advocated for the removal of certain perks as they were too powerful and allowed guns to do things they were not intended to do. Perks like rangefinder, hidden hand, etc. I pointed out to him that several strong perks were already removed or nerfed (shot package, field scout, send it, etc.) and that if you continue to remove the strongest perks left in the game, you have a migration towards generic, perkless weapons. Destiny was never meant to be Halo/CoD where your characters, abilities, guns, etc. were all generic. Nobody had different perks on their guns, everyone had the same abilities to choose from. It was a game where you won or lost on player skill alone. I think that is what bothers people about crucible. If you have a REALLY good gun, it can help bridge the gap between yourself and higher skilled players. I'm not sure I always buy into that argument, but it certainly makes it easier to compete. Rather than migrate towards generic PVP combat, IMO, Bungie needs to be creating further division between the characters and celebrating those differences. Titans are supposed to be the most heavily armored. So let them take more damage than any other character, at the cost of their speed and agility. Hunters have the lightest armor in the game. So let them take the least amount of damage, but have the ability to escape/avoid damage through speed/agility. Warlocks have the best recovery. So allow that to really stand out for them. When balancing skills, Bungie should consider a punch-counterpunch mentality. For instance, a hunter's sticky tripmine or throwing knives were the PERFECT counter to shoulder charge. If a titan is bearing down on you in a straight line, turn him into a unicorn with your grenade or stick him in the face with a knife - and follow up with a few hipfired shots as needed. Remove the effectiveness of those skills and what do you have? People complaining about shoulder charge needing a nerf. I don't agree that SC needs a nerf, I just believe some of the skills that can be used to counter it should be rebuffed. In a game like Destiny, trying to equalize everyone's average KD just doesn't make sense. Some people are going to be really good and have higher KD's on their favored classes no matter what you do with the skills, while others will never be good at PVP with certain classes, and the nerfing of prevalent skills is not going to give them significant help towards improving their KD's on disfavored classes. What I find is that people naturally gravitate towards the three different classes, and they generally develop an affinity for playing one certain subclass. For me, I still love my gunslinger, even after all of the nerfs the 6/14 patch brought. If people enjoy a particular subclass, that should be celebrated, just as it should be celebrated if people enjoy specific weapons. If certain subclasses/weapons are underused, just buff them to make them more appealing. Don't punish people for using what they like.
-
Hand Cannons were over nerfed.
-
3 RepliesEdited by PRINCE_ALI_1985: 8/18/2016 8:07:54 AMMy only issues with hand cannons are phantom bullets and effective range. High/mid impact AR needs a buff in dmg to be as effective as bullet hoses. Bullets hoses are less forgiving for missing crits, Mid should stager more and high impact should have slight faster TTK if all shots are crit. Scouts should have faster handling and stagger more (the more impact more the stagger)). Pulses should simply be reverted to the way they were but with the current dmg fall off. All special weapons are tricky subject. Some ppl view them as special weapons and some ((me included)) view them as power weapons. The fix is really complicated but one thing is certain some special weapons preform better than other they need a fix. Exotic primaries should be balanced separately so they wouldn't more powerful then legendaries. Just my 2cents
-
4 RepliesThe two things you mention that I [u]really[/u] think need at least a really hard look if not a major overhaul are the high impact weapons and the ammo counts. 1) Ammo counts: Especially on AR's and sniper rifles... Scouts are mostly fine, they generally have significantly higher mag sizes than hand cannons but a little tweak is probably OK. But a lot of the mid-high impact AR's have really low mag sizes. Mags should be smaller as you go up in impact, sure, but not quite so dramatically. And there's even variability in the classes with no logical explanation. Example: I have a really great roll on both a Haakon's Hatchet and a Paleocontact. There are some minor differences in the perks but the stats come out about the same, and most of the base stats are pretty similar to begin with. But inexplicably the Paleocontact has a 40% larger magazine. Why? Same with sniper rifles. Why do the lower impact variants have basically the same size magazine? On the extremes, Weylorans has a mag of 5, and the Spindle 3, but otherwise every single one has 4 . Weylorans should have at least 6 in the mag. The Antinomy/Defiance class arguably should have 5, and Glass promontory definitely should. 2) High impact variants of all guns are weak. They need a decent amount of work, but the easiest solution is to make it so that impact actually means something, and those weapons have noticeably increased flinch. Maybe not HCR-level, but the tiny amount of extra flinch they currently have pales in comparison to what you get from a doctrine because it's just pumping out so many rounds. It should be the opposite.
-
Couldn't agree more.
-
-
Edited by Crocco: 8/17/2016 9:39:05 PMAs it stands now, players that use the weapons and subclass abilities they like get [i]punished[/i] for doing well with them. This should not be the case. Not here, not anywhere, not ever. If an archetype/weapon type isn't doing so well, give them some love. If players aren't using certain subclass abilities, tweak them to make them more appealing. How am I supposed to get attached my 2 (technically 3) Guardians and the weapons they use, when I know that in 2-3 months I'll need to find a fresh batch of gear for them and completely re-spec the subclasses?
-
Preach it, make each weapon class play unique, dont just focus on the TtK.
-
Impact of all primary weapons (or the inability to induce flinching, your choice) is a major issue, especially when engaging hard scoping snipers. There is no way anyone should be able to accurately aim down a scope when getting peppered with bullets. Obsessing over weapon balancing for me is still secondary to the issue of red bars, especially during events like ToO and Iron Banner. It doesn't matter what guns, abilities, or skill one possesses when encountering red bar opponents. Bungie finally listened to the community and implemented private matches. Perhaps they can address the issue of red bars,
-
They're far too interested in making it the best competitive multiplayer game out there to listen to any decent posts begging them to chill out with balancing. PVE players are just at a loss. Watching everything you love EVEN CLASS ABILITIES go down the drain is just too much to take and it has been going on for too long.
-
I believe you are mostly correct in your assessment however, I don't think it will ever get there because of the casuals.. unfortunately the casuals don't play enough to learn the maps or the weapons or the strategy and literally run around shooting or getting shot.. simple as that and with that mentality they demand a balance.. really it seems they want everyone to use the same weapon or at worst, every weapon to do the same amount of damage no matter what it is so they feel like everything is equal.. when it isn't. the lines between the weapons get blurred far to much... range, clip size as you say should have an impact in the game more than they do, same with impact.. yet as we have all seen.. its more about catering to the casual player with little knowledge of the actual strategy of the game.
-
Good post bro!
-
Although I still think scope time needs to be increase we do need to do something about these 3 different pulse rifes which all kill in the same time and do the same amount of damage.
-
Hand Cannons had a blanket nerf to mag sizes in 2.0. They are nowhere near most Scout Rifles, with Hawkmoon being an exception. If anything, it needs to be brought up.
-
Yep, the low RoF ARs are still in the ditch that Bungie put them in when they blanket nerfed because of Regime.
-
1 ReplyBump There's so much to reply to but I can't do not know my phone. Makes it a pain to reference your post and continue my thoughts. I'll have to wait till it get home. I'll leave you with this though. (PVP focused only) They've created a vicious circle because of the things they balance on. TTK Effective range Wanting varied gear choice Over use Under use (to less of a degree) There's more but I can't think of them right now. Several of those things contradict each other in how you would normally balance for them. So they're constantly playing a tug of war with their own balancing act believing they can maintain balance. Problem is that people don't play the game in a balanced way. Players will always find the fastest way to kill. Always. They will always gravitate towards the loadout that accomplishes this. The fact that Bungie fights low TTK is a direct conflict with how players play. Yet they seem blind to that. Hmm...even that was longer than I originally thought it would be.
-
The ever-shifting sands beneath our feet are unsettling. I prefer score modifiers as incentives to experiment. Rank the guns, give them a degree of difficulty, and multiply kill scores accordingly. At least then we know what the guns will do consistently.
-
2 Replies
-
Edited by Devasstator: 8/17/2016 9:44:53 PMThis is a good start, but unfortunately only addresses the weapons themselves. Its going to be even more unbalanced come ROI with artifacts. The other side of the equation is the totally unbalanced subclasses and abilities which is the bigger problem to me. The wide range of damage output across melees, grenades and supers cannot and will not ever be balanced (without ruining them all). Bungie needs to stop looking at Destiny like Halo. Halo is competitive because it's balanced and everyone is put on the same playing field. Destiny will NEVER be competitive because of the wide range of talents and perks and they need to embrace the game for what it is and have more modes that exploit the games unique properties (like Mayhem does). Boots on the ground COD style maps should NOT be 99% of the design in a game that is trying to be different. I hope the entire PVP is re-built for Destiny 2 so we don't have the same old boring PVP game types every other PVP based game has had for years! I still don't get why control and clash are basically identical.....and trials is only skirmish with a couple modifiers.......hell, DOOM's PVP level design makes better use of platforming and it's platforming is nothing compared to this game!
-
You lost me at onus
-
It perplexes me because they are perfectly capable of balancing weapons in this way (giving a slower-firing auto a bigger mag to compensate). Back in year one, I tested the dps of the various scout rifles, factoring in reload times for PvE use (mobs). I was surprised to find that if you compared Saterienne Rapier, B-Line Trauma, Crypt Dweller, and Crusader I, despite the different impact, mag size, and ROF, they had been carefully calibrated to yield almost the exact same dps. If you compared pulses, Oversoul Edict, Red Death, Time on Target, 123 Syzygy, Spare Change.25, 55A-ALLFATE, Payment V, an Aegis of the Kell were similarly grouped very closely together. Obviously there are other considerations (stability affecting spread, range fall-off), but at least the base damage against a foe in optimal range can be made pretty similar. Then they diverged from this, to where you get Spare Change.25, a slow-firing pulse, being useless, while a fast-firing pulse like the Grasp can be one of the most dominant guns out there. And as you said, you can have the Doctrine archetype versus the slow-firing autos. It's puzzling that they at some point chose to make some guns clearly a bad choice, versus having every gun having a chance at being someone's choice based on playstyle.
-
1 ReplyBump!
