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6/29/2016 9:10:52 PM
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The proto-Hive may have had longer lifespans than we realize.

The proto-Hive portrayed in the Books of Sorrow are said to have short lifespans of a mere ten years, but ten years to a proto-Hive may be much longer than it is to a human. In Earth years, it's possible proto-Hive lifespans could be as short as 120 years or as long as a whopping 1,650 years. Allow me to explain my thought process regarding this assertion: Consider that we have different frames of reference. As humans, we measure a year by the time it takes the Earth to transit the Sun, but the proto-Hive would measure a year by the time it takes Fundament to transit the Sun. We know that the lifespan of the proto-Hive must be considered within their frame of reference and not our own because the Books of Sorrow are written by Oryx and thus within his frame of reference. Already, this must mean that a year to Oryx means a different amount of time than it does to a human, but how much time does it mean in Earth years? It is impossible for us to say for sure how long it takes Fundament to transit its star in Earth years, but if we consider the gas giants of our own Sol System, we can hazard a few guesses. If Fundament orbits its own star at a distance similar to Jupiter's distance from our Sun, its orbit would take roughly twelve Earth years to do so. Thus, if we multiply the proto-Hive lifespan by Earth years, we arrive at a lifespan of roughly 120 years. Doing the same maths in regard to a Neptune year yields a result of 1,650 years. However, I believe that it is likely that the proto-Hive lifespans were closer to the 120 years. We ultimately know nothing of the nature of Fundament's star, and thus we can only guess at how long a Fundament year is. When considering the narrative of the proto-Hive, I believe that it is safer to err on the side of a shorter lifespan simply because Oryx puts so much focus on the brevity of their lives in his writing. No matter how you cut it, 120 Earth years is a hell of a lot shorter than 1,650. If anyone else would like to weigh in, I am curious what you think.

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  • Or there life spans can be smaller than we think. Maybe a year on Fundament for the Crell would be a week for us Earthlings

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  • I like this theory but I doubt Taft the Grimoire card writers really thought that much about it and if they did you could simply say that the Books of Sorrow were translated to English and that 10 Earth years simply equated to the amount of time stated in the original text. But still good theory and I like the comparison to our own solar system as a reference

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    • Just remember that gas giants can orbit their suns much closer than jupiter or even venus. These "hot jupiters" are surprisingly common in the universe. Add to that the fact that orbit doesn't always relate to distance from the star and ten years could be any length of time relative to us. Add to THAT the fact that time dilation is different for massive gas giants or tiny moons...and the only real way to tell a proto-hive's (i want to think they look like the moths bungie had in concept art so they would be proto-hive canonically and conceptually) age would be to measure it by their accomplishments. How long would it realistically take to clear a spaceship out?

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    • This is true, but also consider this. The Book of Sorrow we read is not written in the English (or whatever language it is we read it it) but in the language of the Hive. It's written by Oryx to his killer so that if someone somehow beat him they'd understand him. It's translated in to a format that we can make sense of. While it's possible that years on Fundament are longer or shorter than Earth years, it's just as possible that the unit of time is just a rough translation to Earth years since that's a unit of time we understand.

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      • It's mostly likely 10 earth years, this a common narrative thing.

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      • The writer of these cards debunked the "longer life" span theory a bit in his interview on "Destiny Ghost Stories" podcast. Sadly I admit I didn't remember what he said the year equates to, but it is much closer to an earth solar year from what I do remember.

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      • SCIENCE! [spoiler]On a serious note It is very interesting. I've always loved analyzing games like this.[/spoiler]

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      • I think that the time frames included in the grimoire are standard earth measurements so that we can understand them properly. It would be otherwise noted in a completely different set of cards, in a whole other app if we needed to worry about measurements from other star systems.

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      • All of this seems to assume that they are orbiting a star of identical mass and size.

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      • I have not read the book of sorrows so I may be missing important details about Fundament. I think it should be assumed that when the cards says years, it is referring to Earth years. However, Relativity may play a part in the age of the "Proto-Hive" in a time conversion viewpoint.

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      • Because it's impossible to say how long ten years is perspectively compared to earth it's best, in my opinion, to assume it's ten earth years

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      • I remember when I was 2000 years old. I'm 5,000 years old now.

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        • Can someone explain how anything other than the hive is a threat to guardians at this point? We killed oryx who killed a worm God who killed his sisters And according to sword logic that would make us stronger, right ?

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          • This is an interesting theory, but consider that outside of our own star system gas giant planets seem much more likely to be located close to their stars than otherwise. http://gemini.edu/node/12025 Here's an extreme case where a gas giant has an orbital period the equivalent of 3.3 days. http://gizmodo.com/astronomers-found-a-gas-giant-orbiting-surprisingly-clo-1701634190 If that were Fundament, the actual proto-Hive lifespan might only have been a little over a month.

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            • It wouldn't orbit around our sun though

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              • Well, a god-wave, or in tangible terms, a tsunami, can travel as fast as 500mph on earth taking anywhere from a couple hours to a day to reach the shore. On Fundament there isn't a land mass. So the god-wave taking 2 earth years of time to accrue enough mass,power(whatever) to hit the "sky mass" means that their planet must be super massive. Not to mention the tectonic shift that would have to occur to create the "God-wave". Porto-hive time is much, much, much longer than we think. Just judging by the power and time a god-wave takes can give you an idea of the mass of the planets core. Heretical nonsense: [spoiler]Since the hive are creatures of the darkness wouldn't their original planet being a collapsed star carcass captured by a near by star be a fitting beginning for there mistrust,disgust of the light?[/spoiler]

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                • *Imagines Crota using his sword as a cane*

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                • Who cares, just shoot aliens in the face.

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                • What about the szyzgy? The 52 moons? Orbit would mean that there is no reference, and it is likely to be way more than 120 years, as our single moon changes the tide nearly monthly. Imagine 52 moons

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                  • Remember the iron lords? one still is around and has been around since before the city... oryx has been around for thousands of years, possibly for millions of years. compared to him 1000 year olds could be newborns, humans started to live 300+ years during the golden age. they could operate on the timetable as frieza from dragon ball( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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                  • Isnt one of Oryx's major goals to "exist for eternity"? Maybe they do have fairly short lives.

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                    • Yeah. I suspect the shortness of their life is a relative one, short in comparison to other life forms drawn to Fundament by the Worms. And it seems that we humans also have a quite a short lifespan in comparison to other beings. The Hive are nigh-immortal, several Eliksni can still remember the Whirlwind, and many of the cabal soldiers we face today are the same ones who captured the Buried City to begin with. So we humans are actually Krill as well, when you think about it.

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                      • Nice but I don't think the fundament would use OUR Sun to measure their years, I'm no expert but they probably have something else to measure years

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                        • I do believe you are correct that a hive year is different from a hive year, but there is the possibility that, since the Books of Sorrow are probably translated, that the time could have been rewritten in Earth years. The fact that it would take 2 years for the wave to reach their continent proves that their planet has a larger circumference and most likely results in give having longer years, no matter what the translated Books of Sorrow may seem to prove otherwise Considering this time difference: the hive had wars that lasted hundreds, thousands, and sometimes even tens of thousands of years. If the Books of Sorrow are in Earth years, how many hive years could that be? Seeing how it was written from Oryx's perspective in most of the Books, asking him would be a good way to find out (and to die, probably :P), or at least find out if the Books were translated to Earth years or are actually still in hive years. If they were translated to Earth years, then we're talking about VERY long wars with extreme patience and cunning from both sides

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                        • I like your theory, but I feel as if something's off. Consider Fundament as being on the outer rim of the habitable zone. It would (I think) still revolve around its sun, but the years could again be longer. While I like your idea, and the numbers may still be correct, i don't think so many creatures could survive on a planet as far away as Jupiter is from our sun

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                          • What's a proto-hive?

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