I had to take some time to read both your post and some of the answering posts before responding. So, my conclusion is that there is an undisputed connection between the Ahamkara and the Worm Gods, based On blatantly open use of their catch phrase "oh, ****, mine." But not enough has been revealed to say that they are undoubtedly the same beings. I would hazard a guess that they likely stem from similar origins. Further speculation leads me to believe that the "Sky" is likely a reference to the "Light," and that the "Deep" is almost definitely the "Darkness." This of course making the connection between the Hive's war on their original homeworld, the Fundament, and what we now face on Earth. Therefore the Worm Gods, regardless of whether they are in fact Ahamkara, serve the same purpose to the Darkness as the Traveler does to the light. [i]If[/i] the Ahamkara are the worms, then it goes a long way to explain why we exterminated them. Of course at that time we wouldn't have known the details of their past, but likely there would have been many who recognized the evil they represented. And as most people have already speculated, the Ahamkara are probably not dead. Again if they and the worms are one and the same then the power they gave Oryx to cheat death is a power they hold as well. In the end not enough has been provided to know anything for certain. I would however credit someone else's response that we are dealing with an alien species, one of many so far, and we cannot draw too many conclusions based on words like "worm" and "dragon" and the inconsistencies these present based on our understanding. Calling an Ahamkara a dragon is because it's the best description that fits. Likewise we call them worms because that's what they look like to us. We see the universe through our own narrow windows and try to apply our rules to infinity because we want to make sense of the chaos. I look forward to the next piece of the puzzle they provide.

A lot of attention is given to the physical attributes of the worms and ahamkara. For instance some have bones as we see with the giant bones on the moon and the smaller ones on the armour and for others chitin is mentioned (let alone the wings). However I would suggest this does not matter so much. The worm gods gave oryx the power to shape the universe as he desires. They gift the hive with the ability to define their own shape. Oryx grows wings, not a typical hive trait and we can assume that the hive in current form are vastly changed from the original Krill on the fundament. If the worm gods gave them this power then we can assume that they are capable of it too and much more besides. So in conclusion; worm, dragon, feathers, bones, chitin none of it really matters because we are talking about an alien species and trying to fit them into real world earth taxonomy wont work. They could have all these features or none. Some could choose to look one way and others another way. The only thing that connects these things is their language which is psychic in nature and transcends the death of their physical form (as with the armour pieces). I would argue they are the same psychic entity taking whatever form they please and always making pacts with other beings. The worm gods make a pact with the hive, Just as the Ahamkara or wish dragons do deals with the guardians. Perhaps they had the same dark intentions as the worm gods and that is what caused the hunt? Perhaps the guardians chose the path that the Leviathan suggested to Oryx and his sisters and killed the ahamkara rather than deal with them.

Good job. The bump is for effort and I would do it again because it held some good content which I'm not getting with Byf.

The ahamkara's are very populair with the phrase "oh bearer mine". It is on all the exotic armor that has their "dead" bones on it. In the books of sorrow they talk about the Leviathan. It seems as if the Leviathan is the good guy in the universe and also reffered to as the Sky (maybe part of the Traveler). And the bad guy who is reffered as the Deep are most likely the Worm Gods. If you look at the grimoire of the Ahamkara (Ghost Fragment: Legends 3) you will notice how the last sentence end with the usual ahamkara signature. "Of this you can be assured, oh reader mine" Now if you take a look at the Books of Sorrow grimoire VIII: Leviathan you will notice how it ends with a very familiar signature. "Let us dive, oh sisters mine" Let us dive means to go into the deep (the bad). The deep are worm gods. The worm gods have some relation to the ahamkara. Either via mind control or direct ascendent of the worm gods. There is no denying it.

I haven't finished my thoughts on it but if you remember the giant ribcage in the chamber of night by Crotas crystal scanning it reveals they dug the tunnels in the moon for the hive but there is also this grimoire. http://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-the-ocean-of-storms-2 This leads me to further conclude for now the ahamkara are either enslaved or a morphologically directed worm. Similar to the tyrannids of warhammer 40K or Zerg of Starcraft. Even the locust in gears of war. The hive themselves certainly change drastically and can direct their own shape. So like my previous post the arhamkara aren't the worm gods but they could still be worms. Specifically from the "scales and teeth" line

If you apply the stringent criteria you do to disproving something you need to apply it to yourself as well. Below you'll understand. [quote]A theory has been going around, popularized by some (including MyNameIsByf) that the Worm Gods in the books of sorrow are Ahamkara. This is due to ONE phrase in the books that sounds like the Ahamkara and the fact that Worm can mean dragon.[/quote] Wrong right off the bat. There are multiple references to draw that conclusion. Akka describing his body is just one. That the dead worm speaks to whatever sister had it and she uses the speech pattern "oh sister mine" is a direct parallel to the ahamkara gear as dead bones as well as their flavor text "oh bearer mine". They also struck bargains similar to each other. So do your research if you want to disprove a theory. [quote]There are MULTIPLE reasons to believe this interpretation is inaccurate. 1. The proper term for dragon is Wyrm, not Worm. While some archaic texts do not make this distinction, it should be known that in modern terminology it is improper.[/quote] Bungie has not used the term wyrm so we do not know if the is is relevant at all. We have seen worm, dragon, and ahamkara. Unless we see wyrm there is no reason for bungie to be following that nomenclature. Hell they called the flying dragons on Venus batadactyls and are not ahamkara. Unless that's a lie which with bungie who knows. [quote]2. The Hive Worm Gods have larva, which look like worms. Dragons are reptiles. They do not have larva.[/quote] Assumption and if you want to get real technical dragons would be birds or dinosaurs not reptiles. They have feathers in game. Regardless we don't know the phylogeny of the ahamkara to say what they are. Either way we dont know the lifecycle of the dragons in destiny. For all we know they could have larvae as they may only be called dragons due to looks. The worms call themselves worms. The ahamkara don't refer to themselves in game. [quote]3. The Ahamkara have no known connection to the Hive. The Worm Gods were found in a gas giant. The Ahamkara were on Venus.[/quote] No known connection doesn't exclude a possible one and while you're right about the worm gods the ahamakara were not restricted to Venus. [quote]4. They were killed by guardians in the droves, which doesn't suggest the power the Hive God's possessed.[/quote] Droves is an assumption. We don't know how many there were to begin with or how difficult they were to kill. We know that teams of warlocks were the only ones capable of hunting adults for the most part. Also there is no indication that the ahamkara were ever as powerful as the worm gods to begin with. [quote]5. Akka, a Hive Worm God, is KNOWN to have had a carapace, something Dragons DO NOT HAVE. 6. Akka's Carapace was larger than the Dreadnaught. Ahamkara bones decorate Guardians.[/quote] Again you're comparing to likely [b]the[/b] largest and most powerful of the worms. That's a poor comparison as clearly the ahamakara weren't the peak of the worm hierarchy even if they were one and the same. They would be smaller and of various sizes. You're also again assuming biology with the basis in game. Look at the concept art. They clearly are not typical European style dragons and easily could have a carapace. [quote]7. The Books of Sorrow specifically mention a group known as 'Dragons' that have favor with the Worm Gods. This difference HEAVILY implies that the two entities are distinct. In conclusion, a connection between the Worm Gods and Ahamkara is suggested, but NEVER stated. In addition, any attempt that suggests they are the same grossly misconstrues information and must rely on some form of unfounded assumption. Edit 1: Is it beyond reason to believe that Ahamkara and the Worms are the same? No. Does the lore [i]directly[/i] contradict this speculation? No. Is there sufficient evidence to claim that this idea is fact? Again, no. Edit 2: Added 7. Source: Book of Sorrow XLV.[/quote] This is the only real solid evidence you have and you explained it so poorly. They mention dragon promises. It is my theory that the ahamkara and worms are related. Not one and the same but closely related. I more just have a problem with how poorly you try to make your point

Whether they're the same species or not, based on their similar forms of speech I think there must be a close connection between the two.

SIDE NOTE: "Wish Giver" spotted on Venus by Titan Deathlyeazy of the Fleet of the lost. Hope the image is accessible. https://www.facebook.com/Fleetofthelost/photos/pcb.589900534503792/589900491170463/?type=3&theater

I came to lay siege to Destiny by being a dick, but the lore is actually quite interesting.

Jesus people actually read that stuff?

[quote]Dragons are reptiles.[/quote]when did we find that out considering they don't exist

Worm doesn't mean dragon, and doesn't relate to it. WYRM does though.

Bro your argument is extremely flawed in that Ahamkara only had to do with dragons because that was their current shape. They are sharpshooters from the void... Doesnt that sound like these darkness was that can inhabit any body?

There is a giant worm like skeleton at Crotas Grave? It's believed that they created the subterranean labyrinth on the moon, according to the ghost.

I guess the younger generations have zero clue who H.P. Lovecraft is/was. For all your "worm god" knowledge needs -- > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu_Mythos_deities What I think the darkness COULD be --> Haiogh-Yai: Also known as "The Outsider" - a monstrous, amorphous, whirling entity living within a wandering black hole called Vix’ni-Aldru, which also hosts a city made of titanic blocks, inhabited by mysterious creatures resembling either worms or lizards.

Whats with the random capslock b?