[b]EDIT: I know it's a lot of text, but please read the whole thing. [i]Especially the last half![/b][/i]
Let me start by saying this;[b] Year One Thorn was mega-BS. [/b]
It made Year One summer's Crucible a nightmare, and you couldn't go into Trials of Osiris back then without seeing it. It was the only choice for players, other than the Last Word and some high-impact Pulse Rifles.
So why, you ask, should the infamous Hand Cannon make it's return?
[b][u] Why should Thorn come back? [/u][/b]
[b]1) The gun looks AWESOME![/b]
I mean, seriously, have you seen this thing? It looks sick! It's design is definitely one of the more unique weapon designs in Destiny, much more than bland looking guns like the MIDA all the class Exotics.
It's got a look and sound that you can instantly recognize on the battlefield. Shoot one in the Crucible, and everyone knows what's coming.
[b]2) The gun is a Destiny classic. [/b]
This gun goes way back, back to the early E3 trailers and Destiny pre-release footage. It adorned posters everywhere. If there was a Hunter on a poster, he had either Golden Gun or Thorn. This gun was the face of Hand Cannons for the pre-release game. It's the reason I was determined to use Hand Cannons from the start of the game. It was iconic. It still is...
[b]3) It's steeped in Destiny's Lore.[/b]
I get it, not everyone cares about lore. But the story of The First Curse, Thorn and The Last Word is awesome! It shows the potential Destiny has for great story telling. Plus, The First Curse and The Last Word are in Year Two, with the former expanding the story. The other two are there, all that's missing is Thorn.
[b]4) It's a familiar in every guardian's hand.[/b]
Thorn has been used by everyone, and I mean everyone in Year One. Every player who frequents the Crucible has spent time holding it, looking down it's green sights, seeing the strange rune every reload, and hearing the sharp hush of it's shot. It's something we all remember.
[b]5) It's a chance for Bungie to fix their mistakes. [/b]
Year one had some terrible weapon design. Not aesthetically, they look great, but functionally they're quite boring.
Gjallarhorn does more damage. (Wolfpack rounds really are just that.)
The Last Word does faster damage. (It's a small-mag auto that three-shots.)
The Vex Mythoclast is an auto-rifle with more damage. (Yes it is.)
Thorn does more damage over time. (So more damage.)
See the pattern? All they do is increase damage. This design was everywhere in Year One to mitigate the poor game design of bosses just being bullet sponges.
To bring Thorn back in a different way would be fixing Bungie's past mistakes; taking an icon of Year One good and bad properties and making it fit with Year Two's balance.
But how to bring it back? To amp it up in it's current state would be pointless. The gun's core function, increased damage over time, hasn't changed. All the nerfs did is put band-aids on a bullet wound. Instead of fixing the problem, the nerfs just tried to minimize it's effect.
[b][u] Here's how to bring Thorn forward in a balanced state, while still being respectful to it's core idea. [/u][/b]
A low RoF, high impact 7-shot magazine Hand-Cannon with average range and stability that poisons people.
[b]1) Ballistic Options: [/b]
One for Stability and the cost of Range,
One for Range and the cost of Stability,
One for Impact and the cost of both Range and Stability.
All should give decent aim-assist.
[b]2) First Perk: [/b]
[i]Mark of the Devourer; Hits with this weapon poison it's targets for 5 seconds.[/i]
Poison in this case not being damage-based. Instead, players with Thorn will get disoriented, like when that stupid poison effect made everything too dark and green. They will be highlighted like with the Fang of Ir Yut perk and will appear on the mini-map to all players. (Essentially a target-lock.) Also, their health will not regenerate until the person wielding Thorn is killed, removing the curse.
This way, the player get's the map awareness and blinding effect Thorn normally offers without the unfair damage. It also means players getting hit with Thorn have the option to attack instead of just running away. In fact, that's probably the better idea since the player with Thorn can track you.
[b]3) Mid-Row Perks:[/b]
Option A: More Stability
Option B: More Range
Option C: Speed Reload
[b]4) Final Perks: [/b]
Option A: [i]Mark of the Soul Eater; Dealing damage to poisoned targets gifts a fraction of that health to you. [/i]
Essentially health vampirism. If you deal damage to a poisoned target, a fraction of the health they lose goes to you. This does give over-shields, but they degenerate quickly if not maintained with damage on poisoned targets. Note that this is not instant like Flame Shield, it takes time, so constant damage from something like an auto-rifle or Ogre eye-blast will negate this.
Option B: [i]Mark of the Sword Bearer; Poisoned targets take additional damage from you and your allies.[/i]
Think of this like a miniature tether. Pop a shot off on a target, and you and your team lights that target up. A stacking damage percentage increase for all incoming damage on that target. Combine that with the disorientation of the first perk, and that target is done for, assuming your team is standing by.
Neither of these two last perks would affect PvP that much, as the first shot with the weapon only administers the poison. It wouldn't take advantage of it's effects until the second shot.
If you use the first perk, your second shot may give you some extra time in a fight to land that slow third round, and considering this Hand Cannon has a low RoF, you'll need the extra time.
If you use the second perk, you can two-shot head-shot kill a low armor Hunter or Warlock, but now the Hand Cannon has a lower RoF, more in line with the high-impact Pulse Rifles, so nothing more OP than Hawkmoon or Red Death. It will still average out a three-shot kill, the only thing I image it will help with is body-shots.
What these last two perks are designed to be used for is PvE, particularly against high-value targets.
The stackable damage percentage would be great on a strike boss. With your whole team firing on him in tandem with a tether, you could absolutely melt him. You could also use it solo against a crowd of pesky majors or shielded enemies. Put one shot in each enemy, them rocket the area.
The regeneration perk would be ideal for the sucker on add-control. For example, in the Warpriest arena, the player with the buff would put a round in Warpriest and profit from his teammates' work, while controlling ads without having to worry about his health.
This idea is just a prototype, obviously Bungie would have to balance the exact percentages and such, but I believe you could get a great addition to any PvP or PvE arsenal with my redesigned Thorn.
Drop a like if you like the ideas presented, and please leave any feedback. (Just be nice, my feeling are sensitive.)
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Too complicated, just keep it as it is and make it year2 :)
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Nope Nope Nope Nope Nope Nope Nope Nope
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I feel like they should unnerf the DoT but make it so your super charges really really slowly because it's a weapon of darkness.
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Here's how: Un-nerf DoT. Make it proc on headshots only. DoT will always leave you with 1 life point left. So the user has to stay in the fight, not just pew pew and run.
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I loved the thorn, it got me to the lighthouse many many times but it is time to hang it up. It was ridiculously overused in year 1. Your idea for bringing it back is great though. I think the Mark of the Sword Bearer perk would be a little overpowered for PvP specifically(good for PvE though). You said that it wouldn't do too much for PvP as a perk but you also said it's like a mini tether when it comes to damage output so the person being shot would be at more of a disadvantage from the start of the gun fight if said thorn user got the first shot and if teammates were around to help team shot... well there's really no hope. But again great idea.
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You didn't do the penis poll right
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This is a joke. That weapon is still an annoyance and it'll never be balanced. They've nerfed it how many times? Still see that thing in Crucible wrecking players.
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Bring back thorn,Gally, ice breaker, vex and necrochasm
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I would love to see it return in one way or another, it's just such a nice looking (and sounding) gun to be left out. I consider it a classic among destiny weapons, and to wield it again would be incredible.
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Edited by Lord Yoink N Bag: 5/4/2016 11:15:02 AMBring back un-nerfed thorn. Its a classic. Make it a quest. Original thorn was a pain in the ass if you didn't have WoC or AE. Much less on a hunter with no void in yr 1. Make it tough as balls. Like the spindle quest on a daily and only can be soloed or whatever
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Bring it back. When everyone had thorns and last words it was so -blam!-ing fun! Now its boring, camp fest and sweaty gimps hard scoping. I can snipe too but i prefer the other meta
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If thorn comes back then bring back Gally.
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Bring back thorn and gjallarhorn. Both could easily be adjusted to the point where they were no longer op, but still viable weapons. I guess bungie still sees ice breaker as a problem(?) so I don't really know how they could bring that back. Over the summer they should re-release vog and Crotas end, allowing for high level drops for vex mythoclast and necrochasm.
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Edited by DirtyBlondeMedic: 5/3/2016 8:33:26 PMNumber two would be stupidly overpowering. No health regen until killed, and [b]just[/b] from one bullet. Sorry, but that shouldnt go like that. Edit: I think the DOT it has now is fine, it stops health regen and does a pretty good job at that.
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Aren't the only exotic weapons not in year 2 gally, ice breaker, and thorn now?
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I stopped when you said it was used by everybody. Because not everybody used that gun like it was the only gun in the game.
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That is literally a tank in your hand.
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You're acting like every single year 1 player had Thorn.. personally I did but exotic bounties weren't the most common thing to drop. Plus all these year 2 scrubs are just gonna get it dropped for free when we had to get 500 points in crucible w/ void weapons
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The Thorn needs to be updated to Year 2. But not the way you're suggesting it. If you think DoT is OP, just wait til your Health is Locked at 50%, while the Thorn user runs around, doing his best not to die. The most recent changes they made to it actually seems to be fairly balanced, however I'm yet to use it in a crucible to test that theory. Also if someone has a character that still has year 1 light values, I'd like to know how it handles in Skolas Leveled PvE content. (Around its light level)
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So with option a in the final perk who would win if two thorn users shot at each other. Also why not just........i don't know.........make a new hand cannon if you're going to change it this much. I'm sick of getting old things back that i already had.
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I'd love to see it back, it's just been abused by the crowd that uses whatever the internet tells them to.
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Wish u have to earn thorn like in y1
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Eeew hell to the no. That gun just abouts ruin any pvp experience
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1) I don't know about awesome, I think it's kinda..hideous. 2) Destiny classic? Well, they clearly don't care about those what with year one being left in the dust, not to mention the other exotics left behind 3) Ah yes, destiny's lore consisting of like a couple stories you gotta read online 4) Wrong, I've got 7 thorn kills I got in vanguard after I got it. I know I don't speak for everyone in any way, but there are people who didn't use it out there 5) Fix their mistakes by adding the biggest mistake there is?! Sorry man, I can't do it, they need to leave that joke in year one, it had its time
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regular hand cannon with keen scout lol