Crazy thoughts or maybe not.... (Not a conspiracy Theory...just a bigger picture of where the issue really is.) I've been playing the game for a while now and experienced a lot of what the PvE and PvP players have complained about. The most frustrating being on the PvP side where you are trying to be competitive , followed closely by the 'loot' drop system. It occurred to me that maybe we are looking at this from a somewhat skewed perspective of being too piecemeal. I'm not here to debate whether some of you think the following occurs...it does, it just may not be happening to you. There are plenty of videos out there to show all points below. What if Bungie's core code, or at least the following part of it, is solid and working as intended on the following items. 1. Hit Detection (Melee & weapons) 2. Bungie Semi-random number generation (for loot/exotics) 3. Weapon class modifications (one weapon stands out so Bungie modifies the whole class of weapons rather than the one noted) I'll try to break it down into noted pieces then tie all thoughts/areas back together. Hit Detection Part 1: (melee): - You punch someone in melee range but it doesn't register OR you miss when you should have easily hit. Conversely, they punch you from quite a distance away and you fly off into a wall from the impact. - You punch someone and they take zero damage, yet if they punch you with full shields & health you are an instant kill, despite wearing extra armor/shields/abilities etc. Hit Detection Part 2: (Weapons) - People talk about aim assist and how 'strong' it is for some weapons. How they can snap a sniper (or other weapon) up and pull the trigger without actually aiming for your head, but instead your body vicinity and it is an instant head shot kill regardless. Yet others talk about actually aiming, shooting a player in the head multiple times and it never registers (with the same weapons as those that do the auto head shot kills 'due to high aim assist'). - People talk about the 'best' perks for weapons yet others find 'less' benefit from those same perks than others do so we dismiss the difference in weapons actions/perks as 'personal choice'. - People talk about shooting players, in PvP, at point blank range yet they do no damage, but others with weapons that have considerably lower range values can shoot you from a much further distance and be an instant kill. This is further compounded by the fact that if you use the exact same weapons with same perks, yet the same situation occurs...you damage them at close range, but they kill you from much further away. Yes I'm aware that some perks/exotics affect health/armor but you can replicate these situations with the same armor/perks on both toons. - People talk about 'Lag' but I've seen green bar PvP players pop all over a map and they are NOT using things like Blink Perception/Assumptions: - L2P. You simply don't have the correct skills, gear, weapons, perks, abilities to stay alive. - You are not experienced enough to know where the weapon ranges are. - You have a poor quality connection. The person you are fighting has a poor quality connection. Semi-Random Number(loot) Generator - Ever notice how you can be in a fire team and one of the other players will get exotic after exotic. Or they get the 'special' loot drop every Nightfall Strike or every 3-4 PvP(Iron Banner) matches. Yet you use the same amount of 3oC and get nothing across all the same matches or get a mote of light (or simply nothing) in the same PvP matches or get extremely low rewards in the Nightfall. Perception/Assumptions: You are just having a 'bad' day, but in reality you ALWAYS have a bad day, every day. The guy next to you has a good day every day and his buddy has one good day, one bad day. Result. 1 wins(bad), 1 in the middle(as intended) and 1 loses(bad). The guy on top thinks everything is great, the guy in the middle is doing ok. The guy on the bottom is a whiner. Weapon Class Modifications - People notice that some weapons are more effective than others (specifically in PvP recently but it can happen for RAID PvE too). They become the 'Meta' weapon. The weapon you have to use to be as efficient as possible. This translates into calls for a weapon 'Nerf', usually on PvP. Bungie reviews their data and decide that the whole class of weapons should be 'tweaked'. - PvE players find that the 'tweaks' done ultimately and almost universally impact the PvE gameplay in a negative fashion despite assurances (and buffs) by Bungie to compensate on PvE encounters. Perception/Assumptions: Bungie is heavy handed. What if they are NOT. They just don't perceive the value of modifying one weapon when they are so close to the code that they see that all the weapons should be just fine, not taking into account that x perk on y weapon could be inadvertently affected by the networking stuff below. Remember what I said at the top of this post. What if everything Bungie has coded for hit detection, loot drops and the weapon class modifications was done properly and with the best interest of the consumer? What is the only thing that could possibly affect these areas such that it gives one person (or developer) a perception and expectation that is different than someone else??? If you answered LAG you would only be partially correct. A better answer would be how the game works across the internet. Its NOT about LAG. LAG is the generalized term used to describe effects that occur when the networking code is unable to properly mitigate different speeds in connections. What if the majority of issues occurring 'misfires' or lack of adequate 'save' points in the core code that are resulting from the networking codes inability to navigate the internet efficiently enough? Suddenly it is NOT about: 1. Hit detection (melee or gun/ranged or close quarters) 2. Semi-RNG loot rolls 3. Weapon Class Modifications (maybe a weapon tweak but its easier to see the tweaks when everything is working as intended for EVERYONE, and not just some or just the devs. Possible ways Bungie could improve things to start nailing down the real issues tied to the networking: - Provide full stats on players (ping time, real time speed, real time connection quality, long term tracking of connection speed/quality) - this is for viewing by the individual - Restrict players from competitive events based on multiple filters (ping time, location, time<-midnight will likely be less internet congested than 6pm) - These restrictions would Not be player controlled but hard limits should be set for PvP, more flexible limits for RAID, easiest for all other PvE. Anything with fireteam required can only be by invite for really bad connections, matchmaking will not work. - Provide method to report oddities or perceived issues (in game) for hit detection, loot rolls, etc. Bungie would be able to match complaints to internet stats and start to narrow down the search. Once enough data is gathered, implement a possible re-code of networks Edit 4 Addition: Several comments state one of the following a. Lag - Fix it and it will be great b. Dedicated Servers - Add them and it will be great Both of the above points are not really the focus of this conversation. Read below to find out why.... I'll try to keep this super simple. Lag is a general term. You don't 'fix' lag, you find ways to combat it. Ways to minimize it include: - Better coding, better hardware, banning or removing hardware, software and users that unintentionally force the code to slow down to accommodate their poor quality connection. To be clear, this doesn't have to be the user's fault - it can be the ISP, Routers, Distance, etc. Solution - Bungie needs to review ALL of the parts that make lag and they need to develop new networking tools to do that as the current methods are insufficient as noted by the many many users commenting on "Lag". Dedicated Servers. They are used in other games of this type and the general gaming population think that if Bungie spent the money on this tech it will fix the current issues. By 'fix' it means everything mentioned above (lag, hit detection, red bar players, etc.). - These types of servers bring their own issues to the table. Bungie has built a Peer2Peer system. Replacing that code to stuff in dedicated servers is likely not a viable option. Dedicated does NOT remove the issues. It masks them in various other ways. Any game with them still has the problems, but they manifest differently and the users STILL complain about hit detection, LAG, etc. It's the 'grass is greener on the other side of the fence"....until you get there. It all comes back to users requesting Bungie invest in new ways to research the users and issues AND improve them not throw money on 'semi-fixes'. The only 'fix' that *might* make a number of users happier, is by implementing restrictions on 'red bar' PvP games but without seeing real diagnostics on your connection and those you are connected to, anything Bungie might do could feel like a big ghostly stick on various consumers that just want to play. Thoughts?? Edit: Added perceptions/assumptions. Edit 2: Please up vote if you think there might be some validity. A 'bump' does not work on these forums. An up vote IS the 'bump'. :) Cheers Edit 3: On Weapon Class Modifications - The consumer pushes the Developer to address something the developer doesn't really 'see' from their end and we end up with the consumer being their own worst enemy. Edit 4: Lag & Dedicated Servers (Addition was above)