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Edited by RoCCa_ToP_SHoTTa:
10/29/2015 5:23:57 PM
79
The Great (Cheese) Debate
So the debate has been ongoing for a few days now. What does everyone think? I see some saying that its a "Smart Strategy". Well that seems odd to me, Isn't that like saying sniping the oracles from atop the ledge in VoG was a "smart start"? It involves the exact same thing....
I think people are confusing a "smart strategy" with a cheesy strategy. If its smartt to leave ogres alive, i guess its also "smart" to snipe oracles from up top, "smart" to cheese the bridge in Crota, etc . I mean lets look at why people cheese, they cheese because the encounter is too hard and complicated for them and their skills are not good enough to overcome the challenge.
My thoughts:
No Knights Cheese - for crappier players, not as skilled, can't communicate well, can't kill an ogre, can't kill a red bar knight with sniper/rocket/machine gun
Killing Knights, (regular Strat) - strat forgetter players, who can kill an ogre, kill a red night, can get back to the middle, can stagger oryx, take out the minimal ads, set off their bombs - oh, and don't wholeheartedly suck at this game
EDIT: It would seem he consensus is becoming clear. Most, even the cheesers, think that performing the intended mechanics takes more skill, while using the other (cheesy) method requires much less skill, lower light levels, lackluster communication, and is able to allow for the complete carry of 2-3 fire team members if necessary (just like the oracle encounter)
EDIT: Question, can someone explain to me how 95% of video posts about the cheese strat were titled with something about how it was a CHEESE< yet everyone that then used that way of doing it now says its not a cheese, instead a "Smart strat"? How did you guys following remove that piece?
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I don't think cheesing the bridge at crota and shooting oracles from ledge is the same thing!! You respawn on the ledge, you just don't jump down there, if anything it's a lazy method, but hardly a cheese...
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1 ReplyThe YouTubers called it a cheese strat because they are view whores and want a click bait title.
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2 RepliesYou called it a "cheese". This post is biased. There is no room for debate here. Also, there is no "great debate" over this strategy - just a group of idiots who either are butthurt that they didn't think of it first [b]OR[/b] a group of people who think the strategy is "bad" because they couldn't properly implement it themselves, choosing to blame the strategy rather than their own ineptitude. [b]Here's the facts:[/b] The strategy is just that: a strategy. It doesn't ignore or circumvent the primary mechanics of defeating the boss encounter - you still utilize the relic and bombs to kill Oryx. What it DOES do, however, is allow SMART players to manipulate the spawns to their advantage isolate the primary objective (Oryx) from the add trash. It is efficient, safe, and, like any other strategy, requires coordination and communication to properly execute. [b]/thread[/b]
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4 RepliesEdited by Haru: 10/29/2015 8:12:16 PM1. You aren't breaking game mechanics. 2. You aren't exploiting those broken mechanics. 3. You are using the mechanics already in the game. 4. You people need to look up the definitions of the words, Strategy, Cheat, Exploit, and bug. 5. If you confuse an exploit for a strategy you need to go back to school. 6. Some strategies may be "Cheesy," that does NOT make it a cheese. Pushing atheon and the templar off with solar nades was a cheese because it was exploiting a broken mechanic bungie had never intended to be in the game. To all those who think this is an actual debate... [spoiler] Grow up and stop getting rekt. [/spoiler] Come at me OP. (;
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He only difference is that the oracles and oryx arnt glitches. A cheese is an exploited glitch to get the rewards. I agree using a cheese is nooby and requires no skill whatsoever. These cheese include: Infinite down Crota, Pushing Atheon off the edge, jumping over the Crota bridge, or hiding in the wall during Golgoroth gaze. These all involved glitches. These bugs included a timer that missed its que because the host was disconnecting, a boss instantly dyeing by a death barrier, a death barrier failing to activate when the sword is held but the bridge isn't formed, and a hole in a wall big enough for a player to fit their character through while not hitting a death barrier or allowing projectiles to penetrate the wall. Those were all glitches. Now for the strategies. These are free of bugs. The ability to snipe the oracles from where you spawn is not a glitch. It wasn't meant for everyone to be down on the Templars platform. (Although you can if you want). Being able to snipe from above is part of the game mechanics and it's not like you can't get shot or get marked by the oracles. The more you hide yourself from the enemies, the harder it is to shoot oracles. Your damage goes down due to range and your view gets restricted. Now on to Oryx. This fight pertains to killing waves of adds to chain to other events. Start Fight | Adds Spawn | Knights Die | Oryx Moves and Slams / \ Player Steps on Plate Oryx does his thing | | Ogers Spawn. | |. | Ogers Die. | |. | Knghts, Adds, and Bombs spawn. | |. | |. Oryx Slams and Opens |. | |. Guardians Stager him |. | \. / Guardians Must Destroy Bombs to hurt Oryx | After sequence based on health | Repeat this until oryx has no health | Damage Oryx in final stance or die Nowhere in this fight do Knights have to be killed. The guardian just has to detonate the bomb which means that he needs to beat that knight to the bomb whether the night is dead or alive. This is purely based on the logic table presented. Not killing ogers is not a bug in the game. Not killing them is actually more likely to make you not succeed in the logic tables terms. But waiting to kill them just gives the fire team more time to prepare to detonate the bomb with more time to race to it before the knights can get there. Even if Bungie made it so that the Knights spawn regardless of oger deaths, all you would have to do is beat the knight to the bomb. (In which case the knight would wonder and wait for the bomb to spawn and then run to it.). This strategy is not a cheese and is just a smarter way of taking all of the complete mechanics to mind. Nowhere does it say what order or when things of these two branches have to be completed. The only difference between these strategies is that the first group came up with the original strategy first. They could have very easily wiped one more time and realized that ogers don't have to be killed before you stagger Oryx.
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No ogre strat is so poor. Its frantic and relies on luck. Numbered platforms and double bubble strat is the best strat atm
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He only difference is that the oracles and oryx arnt glitches. A cheese is an exploited glitch to get the rewards. I agree using a cheese is nooby and requires no skill whatsoever. These cheese include: Infinite down Crota, Pushing Atheon off the edge, jumping over the Crota bridge, or hiding in the wall during Golgoroth gaze. These all involved glitches. These bugs included a timer that missed its que because the host was disconnecting, a boss instantly dyeing by a death barrier, a death barrier failing to activate when the sword is held but the bridge isn't formed, and a hole in a wall big enough for a player to fit their character through while not hitting a death barrier or allowing projectiles to penetrate the wall. Those were all glitches. Now for the strategies. These are free of bugs. The ability to snipe the oracles from where you spawn is not a glitch. It wasn't meant for everyone to be down on the Templars platform. (Although you can if you want). Being able to snipe from above is part of the game mechanics and it's not like you can't get shot or get marked by the oracles. The more you hide yourself from the enemies, the harder it is to shoot oracles. Your damage goes down due to range and your view gets restricted. Now on to Oryx. This fight pertains to killing waves of adds to chain to other events. Start Fight | Adds Spawn | Knights Die | Oryx Moves and Slams / \ Player Steps on Plate Oryx does his thing | | Ogers Spawn. | |. | Ogers Die. | |. | Knghts, Adds, and Bombs spawn. | |. | |. Oryx Slams and Opens |. | |. Guardians Stager him |. | \. / Guardians Must Destroy Bombs to hurt Oryx | After sequence based on health | Repeat this until oryx has no health | Damage Oryx in final stance or die Nowhere in this fight do Knights have to be killed. The guardian just has to detonate the bomb which means that he needs to beat that knight to the bomb whether the night is dead or alive. This is purely based on the logic table presented. Not killing ogers is not a bug in the game. Not killing them is actually more likely to make you not succeed in the logic tables terms. But waiting to kill them just gives the fire team more time to prepare to detonate the bomb with more time to race to it before the knights can get there. Even if Bungie made it so that the Knights spawn regardless of oger deaths, all you would have to do is beat the knight to the bomb. (In which case the knight would wonder and wait for the bomb to spawn and then run to it.). This strategy is not a cheese and is just a smarter way of taking all of the complete mechanics to mind. Nowhere does it say what order or when things of these two branches have to be completed. The only difference between these strategies is that the first group came up with the original strategy first. They could have very easily wiped one more time and realized that ogers don't have to be killed before you stagger Oryx.
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He only difference is that the oracles and oryx arnt glitches. A cheese is an exploited glitch to get the rewards. I agree using a cheese is nooby and requires no skill whatsoever. These cheese include: Infinite down Crota, Pushing Atheon off the edge, jumping over the Crota bridge, or hiding in the wall during Golgoroth gaze. These all involved glitches. These bugs included a timer that missed its que because the host was disconnecting, a boss instantly dyeing by a death barrier, a death barrier failing to activate when the sword is held but the bridge isn't formed, and a hole in a wall big enough for a player to fit their character through while not hitting a death barrier or allowing projectiles to penetrate the wall. Those were all glitches. Now for the strategies. These are free of bugs. The ability to snipe the oracles from where you spawn is not a glitch. It wasn't meant for everyone to be down on the Templars platform. (Although you can if you want). Being able to snipe from above is part of the game mechanics and it's not like you can't get shot or get marked by the oracles. The more you hide yourself from the enemies, the harder it is to shoot oracles. Your damage goes down due to range and your view gets restricted. Now on to Oryx. This fight pertains to killing waves of adds to chain to other events. Start Fight | Adds Spawn | Knights Die | Oryx Moves and Slams / \ Player Steps on Plate Oryx does his thing | | Ogers Spawn. | |. | Ogers Die. | |. | Knghts, Adds, and Bombs spawn. | |. | |. Oryx Slams and Opens |. | |. Guardians Stager him |. | \. / Guardians Must Destroy Bombs to hurt Oryx | After sequence based on health | Repeat this until oryx has no health | Damage Oryx in final stance or die Nowhere in this fight do Knights have to be killed. The guardian just has to detonate the bomb which means that he needs to beat that knight to the bomb whether the night is dead or alive. This is purely based on the logic table presented. Not killing ogers is not a bug in the game. Not killing them is actually more likely to make you not succeed in the logic tables terms. But waiting to kill them just gives the fire team more time to prepare to detonate the bomb with more time to race to it before the knights can get there. Even if Bungie made it so that the Knights spawn regardless of oger deaths, all you would have to do is beat the knight to the bomb. (In which case the knight would wonder and wait for the bomb to spawn and then run to it.). This strategy is not a cheese and is just a smarter way of taking all of the complete mechanics to mind. Nowhere does it say what order or when things of these two branches have to be completed. The only difference between these strategies is that the first group came up with the original strategy first. They could have very easily wiped one more time and realized that ogers don't have to be killed before you stagger Oryx.
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Bungie has said it's not a cheese. End of debate.
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I'm okay with either.
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I think people believe cheating and cheesing are the same thing. Is cheesing legit? Yes, if no exploit or glitch is abused. Most of the time it's just an alternate strategy (such as the no knight cheese). Typically a cheese does take less skill or it wouldn't be necessary. It can also be about saving time, or helping one or two weaker fireteam members through. Idk, I guess my point is that cheesing doesn't bother me and it's stupid that some people get so butt hurt about an alternate (albeit unintended) strategy. The warsat glitch on the saber strike on the other hand, that would be cheating technically, but it's just a strike so that doesn't bother me much.
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1 ReplyAnother pointless thread from a tool that tries to tell people how to play. In the mighty words of me...... Good day sir!
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This wasn't really a debate. It was more of a rant and was filled with the typical insults used against people who use the strategy. I don't see why you care. The way they play has no impact on your gaming.
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2 RepliesEdited by VisageOfAnAngel: 10/29/2015 9:08:31 PM@RoccaTopShotta -- Attacking, insulting, and belittling every single person who disagrees with you [b](especially since you are wrong)[/b] shows your maturity level and age. Simple fact of the matter is Bungie has gone and commented--on these very forums no less--that the "No Knights Cheese" is a brilliant and viable strategy. Not every single person here has 1199.5 hours we can dedicate to raiding like you have done. Some of us have lives, jobs, and responsibilities. When you grow up you will realize this but until then, just know that what you're doing on these boards does not make you a "cool guy." If anything it just makes you more pathetic. Good day.
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1 ReplyEdited by Pixel Crisis: 10/29/2015 6:40:40 PMIf you're not terrain glitching (under map / outside of map / etc) or just generally glitching somehow, then is it really a cheese? You're doing the encounter legitimately - just using a different strategy for it (or is it different? who determines what is the "real" way?). It's not like Bungie put out a video that shows the "official" way to do each encounter and if you didn't do it that way then you would be considered "cheesing" ... I would assume they put the mechanics in place and if fireteams found a good / better / easier way to do it, then so be it. Were the American Minutemen cheesing fights when they didn't line up in a row to get shot at and decided it was better to use cover / flank?
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2 RepliesWhat's better? Walking to the store. Riding a bike to the store. Driving a car to the store. They all get you to your intended destination, some just get there faster. It's all personal preference.
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I like mozzarella, it's great on its own, and in Pizza and other delicious baked goods!
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Dude, spelling.
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Who wants linear gameplay? I like the fact that there is a deviation from the "Bungie intended" strat for hard mode.
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2 RepliesMy favourite cheese is Pepperjack atm
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Funny how any strat out of the "world first strat" is labeled cheese. People were calling cheese on the double bubble crota strat as well. You guys need to realize what is and isnt. We are given certain conditions and we use what we got to beat the encounter. Delaying the ogre deaths to make the knights not matter is a great strat. Who said they need to die instantly? I've even wanted to try dropping titan bubbles on the cross over areas to blind the knights and achieve basically the same thing. Is that also a cheese? Now if there was some bullshit like standing in a spot to not trigger something then we can talk. Meanwhile stfu and you should be happy bungie made these encounters with the chance to deviate strategy
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Want to tell me how to live my life as well?
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I'm sorry, but if Swiss isn't your favorite cheese, you're booted from my fireteam.
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3 RepliesI say not a cheese. Walking atheon off the edge back in the day = cheese. Host disconnecting during crota to keep him on his knees = cheese. Waiting for adds to despawn at bridge to self rez and shoot ogres = cheese. 10% ogres is just a new strat. that works well with some groups and works horribly with others. Your not going off the map here and your not doing anything wrong. In normal mode you did not have to deal with knights so no new strategies were made. Eather way you choose you should just make sure it works good for your group.
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if u think its a cheese then comment how u think its a cheese and the vog sniping wtf that aint no cheese either
