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originally posted in:The Ashen Conflux
originally posted in: .
10/22/2015 1:09:32 PM
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My impression is that its not a matter of good vs evil its a matter of two dynamically opposed philosophies on how best to evolve the state of the universe. The Traveller is only "good" because it morally aligns with our ethics. The Darkness is only "Evil" because it violates our sense of morality. The reverse is true for the Hive. Both Guardians and the Hive are immortal undead servants of their respective philosophies being directed by a will greater than their own. Both sides hold their respective champions in a form of reverence or worship ( difference being the Hive are zealots ). The Hive are assholes but they're not a faceless evil. Oryx wouldn't be after us if he didn't have an emotional attachment to Crota. The Darkblade wouldn't be in a pit if he didn't have the hawts for a girl.
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  • I love how brilliant people hone their intelligence on such minor matters. It honestly impresses me. (This is positive) 😅

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  • My only worry that we might be putting more thought into this than the original writers. >.>

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  • Oryx clearly follows the sword logic, which means that he believes that only the strongest should live and keep fighting, until the strongest one emerges and becomes the perfect final shape. Oryx and the hive will continue to fight forever because they have to feed their worms. It's not as if oryx would have left us alone if we hadn't of killed Crota.

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  • Edited by A Rising Wind: 10/22/2015 2:29:20 PM
    It wasn't emotional attachment to crota that brought oryx, you are using our human concept of love. Hive religion is extreme survival of the fittest, the best killer wins. Not only do they seek to survive, they actively seek out to eliminate the weak, and they actively seek out the strong to test their own strength against (why they spend 20,000 yrs killing each other, to become better killers). Oryx tossed crota to the vex and could have cared less if he died. He only "loved" crota once crota became an excellent killer. So when we killed crota, we elevated ourselves up the chain of command of killers. We were better killers than crota (because we defeated crota), and thus we were sought out as challengers. Last few verses of the book of sorrows. Oryx sought us out because we were good killers. Either oryx would become a better killer by defeating us, or oryx would lose and we would rightfully replace oryx as the superior killers. Which in a weird way, satisfies oryx desires. Whether him or someone else, he wants the best killer to win.

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  • The Book of Sorrows is clear that they have familial attachments even if their concept of love, joy, etc are warped. They even had compassion/guilt originally in their whole mass slaughter thing. I mean he straight up says he should have some kids so he can both love and kill them. And Oryx straight up screams "Vengeance for Crota!" and "I will have vengeance!" at you in game. Everything in the TTK story points to Oryx having a personal beef with you over the death of Crota. Near every NPC says it at least once. All the marketing says it. The trailers say it. The commercials say it. Bungie said it. Its pretty silly to say otherwise. -.-

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  • Also to add on to the end there but in the books of sorrow it says we don't replace Oryx at all and are making a grave mistake.

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  • You're both right and wrong; Oryx still loves Crota in a familial capacity. Although they strive for strength, and value that in an extreme "survival of the fittest" model, the Book of Sorrows also indicates that -- despite all the want for killing each other -- they still love each other and have respect for anyone (even family) who can best them. So I would say you are right, but he also has that attachment to Crota that would spur him even more to attack the our system.

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  • I pity the Darkblade, he ended up getting screwed over because of a girl he liked, so many of us can relate.

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  • No, Oryx only personally came because we killed Crota. The Hive had already attacked Earth. Regardless, Oryx's nature demands that he seek out to eradicate all life in the universe that cannot defeat him. He was always coming for us, it's just a matter of when.

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  • Edited by Waybreaker: 10/22/2015 2:06:24 PM
    I didn't mean the Hive wouldn't be wrecking our shit otherwise. I mean Oryx clearly has a personal beef with us over the death of his son that goes beyond just ethos. Its the general theme of the narrative. Practically everyone from Eris to Zavala reminds you at least once that he's after you specifically because you killed Crota. Its even the basis of the commercial. It is an emotional attachment. The Book of Sorrows is fairly clear that the Hive have emotional attachments even if they express them in bizarre and horrific ways. I mean: [quote]For twenty thousand years they fought across the moons and they fought in the abyssal plains and lightning palaces of each other's sword spaces. And they killed each other again and again, so that they could practice death. Such was their love.[/quote] [quote]Oryx was glad, for he loved Xivu Arath. The Ecumene wailed in grief.[/quote] [quote]Oryx was glad, for he loved Savathûn. The Ecumene fled into the void.[/quote] [quote]I think that Savathûn and Xivu Arath are trying to steal the tablets from me. They must have cut off my tribute while I was away communing with the Deep. I love them so dearly. No one else is clever or strong enough to try to break me. No one else can give me this gift.[/quote] [quote]I love mighty Xivu more than a moon loves the tide. I’ll kill her for this. Over and over, forever and ever. When I get home from my wanderings in the Deep, and I take back my throne, I’m going to have children. That’s what I need. Sons and daughters to love and kill.[/quote] I mean, he described his daughters murdering each other over and over as "adorable" at one point. >.> The Hive are a dark mirror to us with their own morality and emotions. Which strike as alien and "evil". While they must likewise view Guardians as the -blam!-ed up ones.

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  • I guess I misunderstood your initial post. I think we actually agree with each other.

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  • Seems that way. Two people agreeing? +1 Forum Miracles.

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  • [quote]Seems that way. Two people agreeing? +1 Forum Miracles.[/quote]

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  • Yeah I got more of an impression that he came because we were strong enough to defeat Crota. He seeks out those who are able to defeat him as part of his philosophy. I agree with you, I'm not sure it was as much of an emotional attachment as it was part of his ethos.

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  • [quote]Yeah I got more of an impression that he came because we were strong enough to defeat Crota. He seeks out those who are able to defeat him as part of his philosophy. I agree with you, I'm not sure it was as much of an emotional attachment as it was part of his ethos.[/quote] Never actually considered that. Good thought. That being said, Oryx does "love" Crota and his children, just as he "loves" his sisters. The way he shows that love is... Odd. But he does have attachment to them.

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  • [quote] if he didn't have the hawts for a girl[/quote]

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