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originally posted in:The Ashen Conflux
10/22/2015 5:08:45 AM
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In principle universe has no laws aside from those that govern its inner workings. There is no room for good and evil, those laws are not included in theory of everything. An asteroid destroying a planet is not evil even if it wipes out an entire species. A parasitic lifeform cannot be judged as evil on a sole ground that it exists, in many cases it did not have a say in a matter (in some it did and that may be a different story but it is still irrelevant to the universe at large).
The only thing you could argue is that order is in a way favoured over chaos. Why? Without order (on cellular level) a complex environment or organism would not, could not exist. But is that written into the law of the universe or is everything just a luck of a dice roll. Putting religion and creator theories aside (and I do not mean to offend believers with this statement) it really boils down to laws of physics. If you can exert greater force then you prevail.
I do not understand why there is a need to seek greater justification for our actions, especially in a video game (though this fact should not diminish a quality of the conversation). We exist, we fight for survival, for better or worse, we commit atrocities (check out your kill count) we argue in truly despicable ways (check out forums or chats) but just like everything else created, we have a right to exist and we have a right to forge our destiny, especially if we have the greater force. We can do so in an ethical way or any other way we so desire, but for the universe it makes no difference what so ever… the only difference is how you feel about it in the end.
Re: Vex… Would enslavement of mankind be in any way more ethical than a quick death of a species?
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Ok. I appreciate the conversation we are having. Unfortunately, I am on Mobile, and thus do not have the ability to reference back to your text. However, I would argue that the laws of Nature are, by definition, neither good nor evil. Just as you stated. Yet you fail to realize something.... Mankind, as well as the other species in the Destiny universe, is sentient. The question of what makes sentience is a topic for another time, however, so let's just assume that sentience means that you are aware that you are aware. That is, you can ask the bigger questions. That path leads to science and so forth. So sentience. We are sentient. We can choose many things in our lives. Our actions, our words. Heck, we can even go against the nature of living beings itself and commit suicide. Once you breach this point, nay, approach this point, you are responsible for your actions. There is no law forcing your hand. No demon or devil plotting. It is just you, and you alone. So, can you be rid of all blame, simply because it is how the nature is programmed? Because it is how the laws around us work? Yes. I believe so. But only if you are not sentient. That, Guardian, is key. To paraphrase: yes, these various creatures of The Darkness are "evil", as their sentience has been achieved. They choose a path, and they stick to it. Great talk, by the way. I assume you are a Warlock? I would love to continue this discussion, but to avoid filling up this forum with philosophical debates that many may find annoying, could you just shoot me a Message? I would love to continue this discussion there, and perhaps we could even run a few strikes together sometime, to have this discussion firsthand. Pleasure talking to you.
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Edited by Ebon Hawk AU: 10/22/2015 6:35:27 AMI did not fail to realise anything... an age old scientific question still persist... prove to me you are self-aware and sentient. Till today we have no way of doing so :) I am sure you can prove it to yourself (following your own qualifiers) but you cannot prove it to third party. Furthermore, sentience does not have to lead to scientific discovery or event to any kind of enlightenment, assuming it does would suggest that universe only follows along certain lines (which would disregard existence of chaos all together) and I could argue that our actions are often motivated by instinct and will to survive (and healthy dose of self-interest) than actual thought out decisions (I am playing Devil’s advocate here). I do agree with one being responsible for one's actions, but only to themselves and by being a part of group, to that group by right of participation and resource sharing. Finally, let us define good and evil by using colourless room example. An individual raised in a colourless (black and white) room has no concept of colour (blue or red) apart from definition of it as it has been taught to him by third party (if such party existed). When confronted with such colour they would have no idea what it was. By extension an individual raised in an environment with absence of light (darkness) has no concept of light or darkness since only one state exists to them. The definition of good and evil is used to describe actions or results of actions on individual or group. One cannot exist without the other and if an individual exists only in one such state they certainly have no concept of another. For us they may appear “evil” by our definition of the word, for them, they just “are”. The rest is nothing more than a justification of your position. In the end and in relation to the original post, I choose to fight the other side (some call it Darkness) because I want to ensure my own survival and the survival of ideas I champion (some call it Light). I do not use terms such as good and evil to justify such choices to myself or others. And for the record, my main is Titan but I do maintain well trained Hunter and Warlock :)
