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originally posted in:The Ashen Conflux
10/22/2015 3:54:11 AM
14
You might want to actually research the definition of good and evil before making such bold statements :)
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Good and evil? Do you know the proper definition? Good usually means not trying to kill everything. The opposite of evil.
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Edited by Ebon Hawk AU: 10/22/2015 4:26:34 AMA hungry animal trying to eat you is not evil, a "good" person trying to kill someone is still committing an "evil" act :) In principle “bad guys” do not wake up in a morning and look in a mirror and say “I wonder what other evil things I can do today…” Most intelligent creatures have reasons, sometimes very valid reasons that they often use to justify their actions to themselves and their societies. I am not here to have a moral debate, just to point out that good and evil are to broad terms to describe certain events or actions… Now I was assuming this was an advanced conversation and not war propaganda favouring the Traveller, but I just might be wrong :)
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Oh yes. Good and evil are entirely subjective. However, when anyone tries to accomplish their goals by committing mass genocide (Hitler, etc.), they are typically depicted as evil. Sure, they may have good intentions, but intentions mean little when your actions speak louder. So would I condemn a person that would kill to survive? No. Would I condemn one who choose to kill to survive when other options were clearly there? Including peaceful and mutually beneficial ones? Yes. You bet your sweet ass I would. In other words, (I feel we are mostly talking about the Fallen) the Fallen were able to approach us peacefully, to share the light of the Traveller, to unite against the Darkness that has nearly wiped us both into extinction. Instead? They plunder and pillage our lands, raid our city, and pirate our ships. Good guys? Full of grace and love? Unlikely.
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An individual or entire species may perceive that committing genocide is the only way for them and their ways to survive… I am not saying it is a right or wrong way, I am just saying that they may actually believe that what they doing is right and promotes greater good. For example, let’s imagine that Vex can see humanity destroying the universe as a result of its actions in say… 51% of cases. Is it a greater good to destroy humanity to preserve a universe? Is it a justifiable action to pursue this direction? Given their perception of past and future do they have moral high ground to act accordingly? Now the question here is are we having “if you are not with us then you are against us” type of conversation or is this a more in-depth discussion about actions/re-actions, morality, survival and all other complex things?
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Yeah. They might think they are doing the greater good. However, an outsider who has no bias should, after reading the facts, have an opinion. I am neither German nor Jewish, and have been brought up in Hawaii. Do I think the [url=http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law]-godwinslaw!-[/url]'s are evil? Or (I guess as you don't like that term cuz political correctness, etc) doing harmful deeds? Yes. Having on an issue doesn't make you right. It doesn't even justify your actions. Most all that matters is your actions. What you said about the Vex is interesting. Truly. I'm seriously not showing sarcasm to be clear :p However, if they saw that mankind were to destroy the universe, and they were "good", they would not resort to total annihilation. I would also point out that it is not only mankind and the exos and the Awoken they wish to remove, but all species. All life. And that, my friend, would give 'em a clear no-go on the the good guy card.
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In principle universe has no laws aside from those that govern its inner workings. There is no room for good and evil, those laws are not included in theory of everything. An asteroid destroying a planet is not evil even if it wipes out an entire species. A parasitic lifeform cannot be judged as evil on a sole ground that it exists, in many cases it did not have a say in a matter (in some it did and that may be a different story but it is still irrelevant to the universe at large). The only thing you could argue is that order is in a way favoured over chaos. Why? Without order (on cellular level) a complex environment or organism would not, could not exist. But is that written into the law of the universe or is everything just a luck of a dice roll. Putting religion and creator theories aside (and I do not mean to offend believers with this statement) it really boils down to laws of physics. If you can exert greater force then you prevail. I do not understand why there is a need to seek greater justification for our actions, especially in a video game (though this fact should not diminish a quality of the conversation). We exist, we fight for survival, for better or worse, we commit atrocities (check out your kill count) we argue in truly despicable ways (check out forums or chats) but just like everything else created, we have a right to exist and we have a right to forge our destiny, especially if we have the greater force. We can do so in an ethical way or any other way we so desire, but for the universe it makes no difference what so ever… the only difference is how you feel about it in the end. Re: Vex… Would enslavement of mankind be in any way more ethical than a quick death of a species?
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Ok. I appreciate the conversation we are having. Unfortunately, I am on Mobile, and thus do not have the ability to reference back to your text. However, I would argue that the laws of Nature are, by definition, neither good nor evil. Just as you stated. Yet you fail to realize something.... Mankind, as well as the other species in the Destiny universe, is sentient. The question of what makes sentience is a topic for another time, however, so let's just assume that sentience means that you are aware that you are aware. That is, you can ask the bigger questions. That path leads to science and so forth. So sentience. We are sentient. We can choose many things in our lives. Our actions, our words. Heck, we can even go against the nature of living beings itself and commit suicide. Once you breach this point, nay, approach this point, you are responsible for your actions. There is no law forcing your hand. No demon or devil plotting. It is just you, and you alone. So, can you be rid of all blame, simply because it is how the nature is programmed? Because it is how the laws around us work? Yes. I believe so. But only if you are not sentient. That, Guardian, is key. To paraphrase: yes, these various creatures of The Darkness are "evil", as their sentience has been achieved. They choose a path, and they stick to it. Great talk, by the way. I assume you are a Warlock? I would love to continue this discussion, but to avoid filling up this forum with philosophical debates that many may find annoying, could you just shoot me a Message? I would love to continue this discussion there, and perhaps we could even run a few strikes together sometime, to have this discussion firsthand. Pleasure talking to you.
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Edited by Ebon Hawk AU: 10/22/2015 6:35:27 AMI did not fail to realise anything... an age old scientific question still persist... prove to me you are self-aware and sentient. Till today we have no way of doing so :) I am sure you can prove it to yourself (following your own qualifiers) but you cannot prove it to third party. Furthermore, sentience does not have to lead to scientific discovery or event to any kind of enlightenment, assuming it does would suggest that universe only follows along certain lines (which would disregard existence of chaos all together) and I could argue that our actions are often motivated by instinct and will to survive (and healthy dose of self-interest) than actual thought out decisions (I am playing Devil’s advocate here). I do agree with one being responsible for one's actions, but only to themselves and by being a part of group, to that group by right of participation and resource sharing. Finally, let us define good and evil by using colourless room example. An individual raised in a colourless (black and white) room has no concept of colour (blue or red) apart from definition of it as it has been taught to him by third party (if such party existed). When confronted with such colour they would have no idea what it was. By extension an individual raised in an environment with absence of light (darkness) has no concept of light or darkness since only one state exists to them. The definition of good and evil is used to describe actions or results of actions on individual or group. One cannot exist without the other and if an individual exists only in one such state they certainly have no concept of another. For us they may appear “evil” by our definition of the word, for them, they just “are”. The rest is nothing more than a justification of your position. In the end and in relation to the original post, I choose to fight the other side (some call it Darkness) because I want to ensure my own survival and the survival of ideas I champion (some call it Light). I do not use terms such as good and evil to justify such choices to myself or others. And for the record, my main is Titan but I do maintain well trained Hunter and Warlock :)
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You can't really use good and evil because most people think that they are good and anyone that opposes them is evil
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Really, do tell. How am I incorrect?
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I am not the one posting a theory, you can down vote it all you want but it does not change the fact you should do some basic research on terms you use before using them, unless your post is not serious in which case my apologies for interfering with comedy :)
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Like I said, explain how I'm incorrect :)
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Now I feel I should remind you where does the burden of proof rests :) As for my comments, they are included in response to other replies here :)
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Oh the fallacies.
