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10/10/2015 10:16:05 AM
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I went through the trouble of comparing Sunbreaker and Sunsinger side-by-side in a post the other day. And while I don't expect them to be equivalent in every single aspect, I do expect them to have significant trade-offs over each other. Please point out what flaws I've made in this argument (Please note I'm ignoring useless perks - Fleet Fire and Angel of Light).
TL;DR: Sunbreaker has much stronger perks than most people realize, and many people seem to be unaware of this fact. When comparing Sunbreaker perks with equivalent perks from other classes, Sunbreaker not only has stronger perks, but also has the single best PvP perk in Cauterize. My conclusion is that replacing Cauterize with a different perk would not only balance HoS's power spike and open up counterplay, but also enable different build paths for Sunbreakers and build paths that could possibly be less super-reliant.
Let's start with grenades because this is one of the parts where you're vastly downplaying Sunbreaker. Both classes have Fusion. Thermite and Solar play similar roles - zone control - Thermite is better at controlling choke points, lasts longer, and covers more ground while solar is better at covering important objectives and can Ignite (So the two are near-equivalent). Firebolt and Incendiary are in similar roles - both are weak but have limited use as around-the-corner finishers and/or poke. They do about the same damage, have about the same range, and (can) both ignite. Firebolt is harder to dodge while Incendiary can hit more people.
Grenade summary: They're about the same.
Melee: It's clear that from a mechanics-standpoint, Scorch is better. However, people are vastly underplaying some of Sunbreaker's melee perks. Scorch is more defensive whereas Sunstrike is more offensive - Brimstone and Thermal Vent fill similar roles with TV being stronger. Melting Point and Flame Shield are exact opposites with which is better being a playstyle choice. Stoke the Forge is massively better than Solar Wind after its nerf and is actually a better version of Knife Juggler due to the base CD reduction.
Melee summary: Scorch is clearly superior at face value, but has weaker perks.
Super: Let's be clear. There's no question about which super is superior. I won't waste time and space explaining it, I'll just summarize. Hammer of Sol has more kill potential with less skill required (Fusion Grenade stickying versus hammer throwing with possible tracking) to kill, gets damage reduction for free (Radiance requires a perk), and has slightly longer duration (Forgemaster v Radiant Will).
Other perks (The part where Sunbreaker is supposedly weak):
Ignoring the standard "Stat" perks, Sunsinger has four viable perks - Longer Radiance, grenades ignite, ignite lasts longer, and two grenades. Of these, I'd say Radiant Will is a necessity so longer ignite is gone. Between Grenades ignite and two grenades the two are near equal - if you use grenades on CD having two charges of grenade rarely matters and ignite isn't so strong as to be make-or-break. Not to say they aren't decent choices, but let's take a look at Sunbreaker shall we?
Sunbreaker has four-ish (Depending on arguing whether Simmering Flames is worth losing Cauterize or Fire keeper) viable perks - Hammers track, hammers chain explosions on kill, ABILITIES (NOT just super) heal, or sunspots give an overshield and increase HoS length. Of these, Hammers Track/Chain is about the same value as Radiant Will. The problem comes when you compare Cauterize to ANY other perk in the game from a PvP standpoint. Cauterize makes Sunbreaker broken - not only do your 1-shot hammers regen health, but your Fusion/Thermite grenade and resettable-on-kill melee do as well! Fire Keeper isn't nearly as strong as it requires losing Forgemaster for the Sunspot hammer perk or reset-on-kill for the sunspot melee perk but the sheer power behind Cauterize makes every single one of Sunsinger's perks look weak in comparison and even makes the other two Sunbreaker final perks look weak despite being fairly strong from an objective standpoint.
In conclusion, the ONLY thing that Sunsinger bests Sunbreaker in is its melee and it's not anywhere near strong enough to make up for the massive amount of power Sunbreaker has in Cauterize and its super. So either Sunsinger is underpowered (IMO, it's not - I know Sunsinger can do well) or Sunbreaker is overpowered.
And let's be clear - if it were true and Sunbreaker's "general perks" were weaker than Sunsinger's, the two would be fairly well-balanced against each other. It's okay for Sunbreaker to have such a strong super if it has to give up power when HoS is down. The simple fact of the matter, though is that it doesn't. And the main reason for that? Cauterize has too much power IMO. Honestly, replacing Cauterize's current perk with something else altogether seems like a great option at this point. Not only does it balance HoS's massive power spike, but it could also open up opportunities for Sunbreakers to be more powerful outside of their super depending on what the perk could be changed to.
Sorry for the wall, but it's getting frustrating to see Sunbreakers continually say that outside of their super Sunbreaker sucks. It's simply not true.
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No Sunbreaker doesn't sucks outside of its super. The grenades I am in agreement with you. Although I think Firebolt can hit multiple people as well. Meleed I have some issues with. Melting point is good but unless the Titan either got first melee or has teammates ready to shoot whoever he hit it becomes useless other than the burn. Which really needs to have the amount of damage it does reduced or how long it lasts. Thermal Vent requires a kill to create a Sunspot so unless you are running Skullfort the first charge isn't going to act like any other Sunbreaker melee other then the explosion. Stoke the Forge is not great. Once again unless running something that gives another melee charge, the first hit takes the charge and the perk becomes useless. Sunsingers range plus the ability to get a flame shield and have 2 melee charges Sunsinger easily wins. You left out whatever perk causes enemies to explode from Sunsinger tree. The only perk that the Sunsinger melee tree has that isn't better than the Sunbreakers is Solar Wind. Hammers of Sol is definitely more lethal than Radiance. Radiance gets damage reduction on activation. It gets more with the use of Radiant Skin but if not running that for PvP you're doing it wrong. Self res is not very useful for PvP. Duration I'd says is about the same Sunbreakers get a long time of they don't throw hammers. Sunsingers get a long time no matter what. When actually using both instead of just sitting there they are tied. Radiant Will is so far from a necessity. Sunsinger lasts a nice amount of time without it. Viking funeral is stupid lethal when combined with Touch of Flame and still can be very good even if you use Gift of the Sun. Tracking on hammers is useless in any situation. The tracking is worse than any Rocket Launcher anywhere from anything. It is absolute garbage. Explosive Pyre will probably get you kills of you killed someone but missed the idiot standing next to them with a hammer. This is the only time Explosive Pyre has any effect. Fleetfire can have any ability get it to activate but grenades and melee are at best mediocre. Simmering Flames is only good if you don't use your super while waiting for it to charge the perk is useless. While super is charged it does provide a nice boost to cool downs. Cauturize does heal on any abilty kill, but as was already pointed out grenades are mediocre and Titan melee is not super great. While it is totally possible to get kills using these it doesn't happen that much. Cauturize is to help save you during super kinda like what Hungering Blade does for Bladedancers. If you do use Sunspots and you want to keep the overshield and Hammer of Sol to last longer you become a stationary turret. So where you activate it will matter. You can't remove Cauturize. If you do you need to give the Titan a better way of avoiding damage with out an exotic or needing to be on the air. Why? Because as soon as anyone sees a Sunbreaker they start shooting and with how easy a Titan is to hit they would die really quick. He might get a few kills in but the super would become a very short experience especially with it being teamshot. It might need a slight nerf to the amount of damage reduction it has. It most definitely needs to die to a Golden Gun in one shot. It might need the amount of damage the hammers do reduced because currently with a direct hit it one shots everything supered or not including other Sunbreakers but maybe not because unless close quarters you're not likely to hit something directly. Range doesn't matter with this super either because of travel time. The hammers are already easy to dodge if you jump but at range you have time to finish eating, clean up, and get out of the way and watch the nice firework show the exploding hammer will provide. While outside of super Sunbreaker might not suck put it certainly is far from best. Sunbreaker is most definitely powerful but it is not overpowered.
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I appreciate where you're coming from, but Cauterize almost needs to go - that, or either damage reduction needs to be gutted or damage needs to be gutted. As most Sunbreakers I've talked to cry at those two suggestions, replacing Cauterize with another perk is the best option - it would force the Sunbreakers to play on-point with their super time, or risk dying - similar to how Golden Gun is a walking target for snipers and shotguns. I just know that whatever the problem is with Sunbreaker, you shouldn't be able to have a higher kill potential than every other super, the damage reduction of Sunsinger, and the healing capabilities of Bladedancer in a [i]single super.[/i] If perks need to be buffed or reworked to keep Sunbreaker viable, by all means. But something has to go because as it stand HoS has the best of all worlds and no glaring weakness.
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Rather than completely removing cauterize, why not as bungie to add an addendum to it that states it only works against the minions of the darkness. That way, (most) everyone will be happy in crucible without ruining the sunbreaker for the PvE side. (In my opinion, I think that addendum should be put on all of the health regen class perks.)
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Golden Gun is much different due to the fact it has no travel time. If the are on target and shoot you there is no getting out of it. You die. Their effective range is also much better than a Sunbreakers. If a Sunbreaker throws a hammer across map you have more then enough time to move. If you don't it's your fault and you can't blame anyone else. You can't rush straight at a Golden Gun you have to play smart or you die. They way people react to a Sunbreaker now it would be even more of a target because it would be easy to kill especially with team shots. If a Sunbreaker came upon more then 1 or 2 people they wouldn't have much of a chance to do much. People just stand there right now and take whatever the Sunbreaker does to them. You have to dodge. Jump and stuff. Hammers are easy to avoid if you actually move. You might not be able to kill one by yourself but you're not you're not killing to many Stormcaller a by yourself either. Run if you need to and hat isn't the only counter. Shotguns and snipers work well. I've killed a Sunbreaker with one other person helping me. There was only two of us and we won. How? Avoiding hammers and teamshots. Higher kill potential? Nah. Stormcaller and Nightstalker are pretty good to. Bloodbound on Nightstalker is very good with getting kills if you hit more then one target. Stormcallers chaining us pretty lethal as well and they get a Fist of Havoc on activation. I've seen more Stormcallers clear entire teams and most likely get 7th Column medals than I have Sunbreakers. Sunbreaker isn't overpowered you just don't know how to react to it.
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It's by no means that I don't know how to react to Hammer of Sol coming down. It's that the viable reactions are so limited that there's no real counterplay. Bladedancer was nerfed specifically for this reason way back before TDB released. Reactions 1) Run for dear life. 2) Outplay the sunbreaker massively (This includes sniping them TWICE, surviving long enough to tether them, dodging 6 hammers, or being able to focus fire a massively armored guardian before a single person dies to a hammer). 3) Be one of two subclasses, have super up, and use it before sunbreaker can throw two or three hammers (Striker/Voidwalker). Hunter has no guaranteed counter (Two GG shots or surviving long enough for tether are not counters, they're outplaying). None of those seem like good reactions, no? Whereas every other mobile super has a clear reaction. Stormtrance? Split up, focus fire, keep distance - admittedly, Stormtrance needs it's armor hit a bit as well. Arc Blade? Don't let them in melee range, shotgun/melee, snipe, really anything. Radiance? Dodge grenades (Much easier than hammers). Golden Gun? Corner camp, snipe, sticky grenade, heavy, etc. If you weren't here for Destiny's release, let me give you a little history: At the start of the game, Arc Blade had as much armor as Sunbreaker does. Combined with Hungering Blade, it made Arc Blade almost exactly like Hammer of Sol. Except it was melee. They nerfed Arc Blade's armor because it was so hard to deal with on the Destiny map pool. So based off of the past, a Hammer of Sol nerf is almost certainly coming. If it isn't, I'd be surprised. Sunbreaker does need a tiny bit of help outside of its Super to be equivalent to other subclasses outside of super, and Defender needs it's own special sort of love for PvP viability outside of control/salvage, but Hammer of Sol needs a nerf badly.
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It does not need to be out played massively. It just needs to be outplayed. It's very easy. I don't it all the time. The teamshots is totally viable because of how easy it is to avoid hammers and most likely the Titan will only go after one person till they're dead. Sniping them from range is as hard as sniping anything else from range. If you're close up trying to snipe you're doing it wrong. Corner camping with an all right rate of fire shotgun instead of a slow rate of fire will get you a kill because in my experience most Titans don't throw hammers through doors for no reason. Sunbreakers shouldn't survive a Golden Gun if shot first. They barley do as it is and if they have the right stuff equipped. If one thing is missing they die. I have seen many Sunbreakers shut down by Shadowshot. It's just a matter of not rushing them which isn't special to Sunbreakers if you rush most roaming supers you die. Surviving till tethered is hardly out playing because it doesn't take that long to tether something. Voidwalker and Striker aren't that hard. Voidwalker is easier because it's a ranged Fist of Havoc. Fist of Havoc you have to be a little bit smarter. Just wait on the other side of a door or around a corner and you'll be fine because in my experience not too many Titans throw hammers through doors for no reason. Last night I was running Striker and was able to shut down Sunbreakers easily even if I wasn't right around the corner waiting for them. Having your super up when you need it isn't hard. I think Sunbreakers have at most 55% damage reduction which compared to everything's 50% isn't bad. It is probably because Titans are the armor class. Would I be upset if they changed it to 50%? No not really. I have been playing since Day 1. There is one definite change I would make. Golden Gun survival. Whether buff Golden Gun damage or reduce the damage reduction doesn't matter to me. Striker without Unstoppable still survives Golden Gun shots happened to me last night.
