originally posted in:Collective Of Knowledge
Before we start this show, make sure you're well-versed in the [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/153754344/0/0]Books of Sorrow[/url]. If not, then at least a know what the basic premise is. I will explain what is needed here, oh reader mine.
The Books start out on a gas giant known as the Fundament. In this gas giant float numerous "continents", which are actually shards of planets that have crashed into Fundament. On a few of these continents dwell a krill-like species, with an average lifespan of 10 years. We focus on one of these continents, the Osmium Court, where the king wanders senile around his castle, muttering to a dead worm he found in the "ocean".
His three daughters, named Aurash, Sathona, and Xi Ro, discover a plot devised by Taox, a sterile mother, to usurp the king. The sisters escape the Osmium Court with three things: a ship, knowledge, and a worm. The king predicted that the 52 moons of the Fundament would soon line up just right and create a God-Wave that would wipe out their species. Sathona took the worm from her father's corpse, and it whispers to her, "Listen closely, oh vengeance mine..."
As the sisters grow older, they decide to dive into the Fundament. The worm whispers to Sathona and tells her to dive. To dive, and see what they can find. They encounter a Leviathan, who tells them to turn back, to save themselves from the Deep, to save the world from themselves. He tells them of a war between the Deep (Darkness) and Sky (Light). But Sathona, listening to the worm, says, "Let us dive, oh sisters mine."
They find the Worms. Yul, the Honest Worm. Akka, the Worm of Secrets. Eir, Ur, and Xol, the Virtuous Worms. Yul speaks to the sisters, saying [quote]Behold my passage. Behold my vast displacement, my ponderous strength, my great and coiling length, my folded jaws and curled wings. Behold the hiving cities symbiotic with my flesh. I am fecund, Aurash. I am at the beginning and end of lives.[/quote]Even though Yul calls themselves worms, they have folded jaws and wings. The worms offer the sisters immortality, power, and revenge, if only they take the worms' larvae into their bodies.
Aurash becomes a king named Auryx. Xi Ro becomes a knight named Xivu Arath. Sathona becomes a mother named Savathûn. The Worms tell them to spread the larvae amongst the Osmium Court and the other continents of krill. Taox flees with her supporters, trying to rally the other species of the Fundament against them. So the sisters slaughter. Through these acts, the Worms obtain the logic needed to escape the imprisonment of the Leviathan, commenting that [quote]Reality is a fine flesh, oh general ours. Let us feast of it.[/quote]The Worms tell them to kill the Ammonites (who are protecting Taox) so that the Worms can deal with the 53rd "moon", a Traveler. They teach Auryx (who is now male) the nature of the sword logic, in order to overrun the defiant Ammonites. Auryx is betrayed by his sister for showing mercy, and is killed. Yet the Worms give him a throne world, so that he would not die.
The Leviathan rises from the Fundament, attempting to right Auryx's path. But the Leviathan is killed and feasted on by the Worms. The Ammonites are wiped out, and the Traveler flees. And so begins the Hive, and their crusade against the Traveler. They begin to conquer and slaughter and extinguish all the way to the Ecumene empire.
Auryx, in order to become more powerful, kills his sisters, entombing them in their thrones. He goes to Akka, the Worm of Secrets. Auryx set upon Akka with his sword, cutting him to pieces, and learning the secrets of the Deep. Auryx becomes Oryx, the Taken King. He continues to fight to the edge of the Deep, where it then speaks to him.
Xivu Arath maroons Oryx in the Deep, in the ways of the Hive: eradicate weakness, if it exists. Once he emerges, he creates Crota, Eater of Hope; Ir Anûk, the Weaver; and Ir Halak, the Unraveler. Crota is goaded on by Savathûn into letting the Vex in to Oryx's throne world, Oryx gets pissed, yada yada yada. Oryx and his Court turns his throne world inside out and puts it inside a Dreadnaught, where it shall be protected.
As the Hive prepare to assault something the Traveler created known as the Gift Mast, Xivu Arath comments [quote]THE DRAGONS. Our gods should be ours alone. Their smug freedom is an insult to me. I’d shut them all in cells. Bring them to me![/quote]The Hive then attack the Harmony, a collection of planets orbiting the Gift Mast. [quote]Now arrives Xivu Arath, at the head of her armada. She fights the Harmony for fifty years with strategies and discipline. But the Harmony turn to dragon-wishes, and their wishful bishops wrestle Xivu in the ascendant plane.
Xivu falls into deadlock.
Next arrives Savathûn, flanked by her chorus and her celebrants. They trick their way onto Ana-Harmony in disguises, so that they might vivisect these dragons. The Worm our God laughs and laughs.[/quote]Soon after, Xivu Arath, Savathûn, and Oryx go their separate ways, leaving Oryx to brood and muse on his purpose.
Ok, what was my point with all of this claptrap? Let's look at some important lines throughout this: [quote]Listen closely, oh vengeance mine...
...my great and coiling length, my folded jaws and curled wings.
Reality is a fine flesh, oh general ours. Let us feast of it.
THE DRAGONS. Our gods should be ours alone. Their smug freedom is an insult to me.
But the Harmony turn to dragon-wishes...
They trick their way onto Ana-Harmony in disguises, so that they might vivisect these dragons. The Worm our God laughs and laughs.[/quote]By know I'm sure you know where I'm going with this. "But Tree! The Ahamkara were [i]dragons[/i], not worms!" Yes, but they also had feathers, so they obviously weren't 100% purebred dragon. And let's not forget the flavor text of the Viper Spine VI, "Legends tell of a serpent who sold knowledge..." What if (thank you AnonPig) they were modeled of off the Aztec god, [url=http://orig00.deviantart.net/59dd/f/2009/194/8/6/quetzalcoatl___kukulcan_by_genzoman.jpg]Quetzalcoatl[/url]? Additionally, a Wyrm was a European name for a dragon.
Now, I'm not saying all Ahamkara are Worms, but the Worms are almost certainly Ahamkara, oh reader mine. And it appears that the Ahamkara are servants of the Deep. It seems as if the Ahamkara follow the Traveler around, making promises and granting wishes at a terrible cost. That's why the Great Ahamkara Hunt made them "extinct" here. I say "extinct" because the Ahamkara are creatures of the Void; they can choose their shape. Ever wonder why the bones on Young Ahamkara's Spine flex, oh reader mine? Or why the flavor text of the Bones of Eao is "Defy extinction"?
[b]Edit[/b]: This piece of info completely slipped my mind. In Cayde's little journal included in the Collector's Edition, he mentions transferring from Clovis Bray to the Ishtar Academy:
[quote]Every big brain in the system has their sights set on the Academy.
We were there for the Ahamkara, parasite reptilian critters that appeared out of thin air. Inexpliciable genome, new protiens.
So much potential.[/quote]Ahamkara are parasitic creatures. This provides further connections between the Worms and Ahamkara
[b]Edit[/b]: Additionally, the Scales of Eao are obtained from defeating Tier 3 Court of Oryx. Eao is most likely the name of an Ahamkara, his/her/its bones making up the Bones of Eao. This further strengthens the Hive/Worm—Ahamkara connection.
[b]Edit[/b]: In the card for Kagoor, Oryx says
[quote]Raising great tribute, I took council with my vanquisher worm
It spoke to me — it was the speech of truth
It ate of me — it was the pact I made
It showed me a shape — it was the correct shape of joy
Saying: this is the shape of joy, oh ruler mine[/quote]
[b]TL;DR[/b] — The Worm gods that the Hive worship are members of the Ahamkara species
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So the hive are vengeance upon us by the worm gods, i.e., ahamkara. Correct?
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Reminds me of the Aedra/Daedra relationship in one of the Monomyths
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Bump for later pls
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Excellent post by the way. Fun to think about!
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"Yes, but they also had feathers, so they obviously weren't 100% purebred dragon." This implies that the destiny universe refers to a dragon as a typical fantasy dragon, which is not implicitly stated. "but the Worms are almost certainly Ahamkara, oh reader mine" Why is this almost certain? Simply because they have the same speech pattern? This implies a connection between the worms and the Ahamkara, but nothing more. The worms are described as both "...my great and coiling length, my folded jaws and curled wings." and "It was my father’s familiar. I ripped it from him as we fled. It is a dead white thing, segmented, washed up from the deep sea.. It’s dead, but it still speaks to me. It says: listen closely, oh vengeance mine..." Those descriptions sound nothing like the Ahamkara, again only the speech is the same. So why are the worms Ahamkara? Let us examine what is directly stated. The Harmony are refered to as dragons by Xivu Arath "THE DRAGONS. Our gods should be ours alone. Their smug freedom is an insult to me." And again during the battle for Ana-Harmony "She fights the Harmony for fifty years with strategies and discipline. But the Harmony turn to dragon-wishes, and their wishful bishops wrestle Xivu in the ascendant plane. Xivu falls into deadlock." The Harmony are wish granting dragons, just as the Ahamkara are described. But why then do they speak as the worms do? From Book of Sorrows XLVI we also learn "They trick their way onto Ana-Harmony in disguises, so that they might vivisect these dragons." and "For a hundred years Savathûn keeps secret covens among the Harmony." Finally "Xivu Arath kills the wishful bishops, and Savathûn achieves some secret purpose, and Oryx’s Court tears down the Gift Mast." So it seems Savathun infiltrated Ana-Harmony with the goal of vivisecting the dragons, and held secret covens on Ana-Harmony for 100 years. It is likely then, that the secret purpose that Savathun achieved was turning some of the dragons to worm worship, and perhaps even consuming the worms themselves. Hence Xivu Arath's outrage with statement "Our gods should be ours alone." This is likely why the Ahamkara speak as the worms do, as they are the Harmony who were converted to worm worship by Savathun. These Ahamkara defied the extinction of the Harmony by turning to worm worship hence the description on bones of Eo.
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The Aztec God of the Winds you posted is named Kulkukan. A Quetzalcoatl is a bird that is endangered or extinct I don't remember exactly
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So with all this info about the Hive infiltrating by disguise, wouldnt it make sense that theyre in disguise around us?
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Im sorry but how can anyone deny this with so much information leading to it in this post. Another thing- how can people say Destiny has no story? Its got to be people who have never read a book in their entire life for pleasure.
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Tree, what's your opinion on the Ahamkara being a form of dragon that has "ingested" a worm? Similar to how the Hive became the Hive after they accepted the worms, would the dragon become Ahamkara? Based off this theory, I wonder if Savathun and her followers sought to vivisect the dragons to possibly remove their worms since she wanted the worm for the Hive only. Maybe the worm, their god, laughed at the vicious ends their hosts would go to in order to solidify their place as the only "bearer" of the worms. Which also plays into the Hives belief that what can be killed deserves to die. From the perspective of a god considering these circumstances I can see how they would laugh malevolently at this. I haven't heard this theory before, I'm interested in your opinion.
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Savathun was studying the dragon.
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I would agree. I believe the ahamkara work for the worm gods. They had a ahamkara take a shape of a dead worm and speak to the king. They had them try to get in contact with that one race the traveler got to first.
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We don't know the xol,ur and eir are the worms of.
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I believe the worms and the ahamkara are of the same species, any difference in looks can be attributed to the fact that they can change shape. I think that they are separate SECTS of the same species. One more benevolent, they feed on reality so reality must exist, the other bonded to the deep and feeds on the extinguishment of reality. One in the same but have different views and therefore fight
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The Ahamkara and the Hive both fell under the spell of worms who use the power of the darkness.
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Edited by Afawafa: 9/30/2015 8:41:12 AMI disagree. The Ahamkara may be related to the Worms, but I do not think that Ahamakara = Worms or vice versa. You bring up the point that the Worms speak in a similiar manner as the Ahamkara. However, Sathona spoke in the same manner as the Worms when she was in possession of one. She was neither a worm nor a worm host at that time. If mere interaction is enough to spread the Worm's speech pattern, then this evidence isn't conclusive enough to show that the Worms are the Ahamkara. Regarding the Worm's self-description, there isn't really anything that points to its features being exclusively dragon-like. "Great and coiling length" would be just as applicable to a giant worm. "Folded jaws" seems more insect-like rather than reptilian while "curled wings" are a feature found on flies. The Ahamkara remains clearly show that they were vertebrates with reptilian claws. What really leads me to believe that the Worms aren't Ahamkara is this [quote]THE DRAGONS. Our gods should be ours alone. Their smug freedom is an insult to me. I’d shut them all in cells. Bring them to me![/quote] This would make a lot more sense if the Ahamkara were also hosts to the Worms or perhaps they found a method to harness the Worms' power without becoming a host. Xivu's jealousy would be understandable if these dragon creatures had the same worm powers that the Hive did but without having to pay the same price. Alternatively, the Ahamkara are also servants of the Deep and those that serve the deep have similiar characteristics and mannerisms.
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Edited by NobodyJustBrad: 10/1/2015 6:05:04 PMYou lost me at gas planet. A KRILL like species lives there and they talk about a GOD-WAVE destroying things. Wouldn't that mean it's got a liquid surface at the very least?
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The following quotes are the parts that confuse me: [quote]THE DRAGONS. Our gods should be ours alone. Their smug freedom is an insult to me. But the Harmony turn to dragon-wishes... They trick their way onto Ana-Harmony in disguises, so that they might vivisect these dragons. The Worm our God laughs and laughs.[/quote] If the Worm Gods and the Ahamkara are the same species, why would the Hive show them such contempt, to the extent of actively seeking their capture and vivisection? I personally interpreted that passage, specifically "our Gods should be ours alone", to mean that the dragons had a symbiotic relationship with the worms like the Hive. Therefore making the Worm Gods not " ours alone". As I said, that was just my take upon reading the Book of Sorrows. It's interesting to see another perspective. Very informative read!
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This was a pretty good read. Very well supported theory. I will say that the Worm from the beginning of the Book of Sorrows was very small. Also, they appear to be the same Worms that we see on the Dreadnaught. In fact, even the Ghost talks about how the Hive live in Symbiosis with the Worm which is exactly what the Book of Sorrows describes. The Worms aren't Parasites because they actually do offer something to the relationship. They offer power, and direction. Anyways, I do not believe that the Worms from Fundament are the Ahamkara, but they could be. It's a little too ambiguous to be 100% sure.
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Great job gathering lore! But still...the fact that oryx was throwing a tantrum over sharing his Gods with dragons. If they aren't Ahamkara what are they
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I think the Arkhamara are shapeshifter a abd take the form of legendary beasts and make bargains to gain power
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Bump for after class
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Should I read the books of sorrow? Is a grimoire card?
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How did they get past the leviathan?
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Eh, no. Worms aren't Ahamkara. They're separate things. Makes no sense for the Worms to suddenly start siding with the Harmony against the Hive.