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Edited by Bicknell125:
9/15/2015 1:43:47 AM
71
Handcannon Accuracy Nerf Makes the Guns More RNG Than Skill, Here's Why.
Update 2.0 dropped and many of the changes were well liked. Thorn is less ridiculous and The Last Word is locked in it's optimal range. But of all the good in the handcannon nerf, reducing accuracy, especially for aim down sights, was a horrible idea. However many people don't understand what accuracy is.
Accuracy is an invisible stat applied to guns in destiny. Imagine that the center of your crosshair had a straight line from you to whatever you're aiming at, and whatever is on that crosshair will get hit if you pull the trigger. That is what most people think is how shooting works in the game, but that is not true. It is actually a cone that gets wider the farther away you are from you're opponent. The shot fired lands randomly anywhere within that cone. Accuracy is the stat that determines how big that cone is. Generally Auto Rifles have the lowest Accuracy stat, while Scout Rifles have the highest.
In the case of Handcannons many people who had the Hawkmoon before the first Handcannon nerf would remember that it was capable of hitting targets in sniper range. Naturally they reduced initial accuracy to compensate. After that many people noticed it was very hard to hit the first shot of Hawkmoon at longer ranges. That was because the cone for the first shot was larger than following shots.
After update 2.0, damage dropoff and the sight change along with this initial accuracy nerf made it so Hawkmoon could hardly work at long ranges, but the next accuracy nerf is where the problem is. The final accuracy nerf with patch 2.0 made the bullet cone so big that at the mid to mid-long range, there is a reasonable chance that a shot fired while in the center of the opponents head will miss the head and either hit the body or miss repeatedly. The Last Word (at the tail end of its own optimal range) and Hawkmoon feel this accuracy nerf the most, as they don't have the aim assistance to compensate.
Bungie needs to either remove or reevaluae the accuracy nerf to handcannons so it doesn't encroach on [b] Mid Range Plays [/b]. As it stands whether or not a bullet hits depends on how lucky you are that the shot lands in the center of the bullet cone. Overall the balance was well needed and actually helpful in some cases, but Bungie's statement that handcannons reward a skilled hand is a currently a lie, now it only rewards a lucky shot.
[b][/b]
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8 RepliesAgreed. There was no reason to touch the accuracy in the first place. We're talking EFFECTIVE RANGE. Hand Cannons are a precision weapon built for Mid Range combat. In all seriousness, they should be the CQC cousin of Scout Rifles, with equal terms of accuracy but with their main difference being in Range. Hand Cannons offset this by having greater Impact so that they aren't getting wasted by Auto and Pulse Rifle sprayers. I mean, really Bungie...how difficult is this for you? I know at least several novice designers from college who could figure all this balancing out way more easily. I'm starting to believe the people who say shit like this is being done on purpose.
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Bump.
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5 RepliesI would go as far as to say that the RNG aspect is almost intentional, as if there has to be a certain number of hits that must miss. I have more than 150k hand cannon kills, with nearly 90k precision kills, and there is nothing I do not know about precision and hand cannons. I have spent many hundreds of hours honing muscle memory so as to perfect my precision, and there is not a shot I cannot make. Yet, since this update, I have found that I am missing shots I could snap easily, and with my eyes closed. My weapon of choice was Timur's Lash, an exceptional high impact, low ROF hand cannon. With field scout, it had 13 rounds, enough (on a good day) to take on three or four guardians before a reload. Since the 2.0 update, I find the weapon has only 7 rounds. Because of the nature of the hand cannon nerf, I have to take into consideration that the game might force me to 'miss' a shot I would normal make easily, and as such instead of accounting for 3 rounds, I have to account for 4 instead. Maybe I need the 4th shot, perhaps I do not, but you cannot plan a strategy based on chance. So after every single kill, I have to reload the gun. This has made my beloved Timur's Lash unuseable. I do not understand why BUNGIE would punish all hand cannon users, to get at the chancers that were using Thorn. I have hardly used exotic hand cannons, favouring instead the plethora of legendary types, and the singualr focus of precision to guide my guardian through the darkness. I have always considered myself a marksman above everything else, favouring the challenge of the perfect shot, and the thrill of the hunt, I have never been interested in using hand cannons in anything other than a way that stylises, and romanticises their use. Bungie threw down the challenge to become legend, and it was challenge that I gladly accepted. But once again, I am finding that the only legend I am allowed to become, is the one that BUNGIE dictates that I become. Hand cannons should be restored to their former glory, by all means single out Thorn, it was mostly used by chancers and no hopers. Do not penalise those of us who have dedicated considerable time and effort in search of perfection, and who use legendary hand cannons. Destiny is an amazing game, I have put more than 1,300 hours into this adventure, but this hand cannon nerf is turning into a deal breaker for this guardian. Fix this, please.
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1 ReplyFunny,I have yet to NOT hit what I am aiming at unless i am doing fast trigger pulls.If i am doing controlled,timed trigger pulls I hit my target everytime.I think you will find that spamming your triggere is what uses the cone you are speaking of which makes sense because if you do the same thing IRL with a gun your grouping sucks,the skill comes into play yo properly use the weapon of choice to make it the most accurate.
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i agree well said the nurf for thorn was needed last word did need 111 perk fixing and it should be harder to snipe with handguns i think that with the new biger maps we need a bit more range and last word is now usless unless your within 12 feet witch is stupid along with all the hand canon nurfs they accidently made pulse op because theres nothing that contest at close mid to medium mid range pluss even out gut snipers an scout at long range with the old smaller maps i dont think this would have been as big of an issue but now it is with the new maps an if i had the option to only play old maps i would but there isnt, so it needs fixing i miss hand canons i find my self having to use vex witch is the only choice now if you dont like pulse, and i hate pulse rifles always have.
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1 ReplyMany of you aren't understanding. The accuracy penalty has stacked, twice now. Hawkmoon has no aim assistance. Atleast, not to where it can compensate for this crippling nerf. I have fired with the reticle spot on the targets heads, and gotten body shots and complete misses. The gun is as accurate as Song of Ir Yut, firing one shot a second
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Aim assist and the hitbox have been nerfed across the board essentially. Everything but shotguns seem to be effected. Snipers took the hardest hit. I have no idea why this was done by Bungie, but I hate it and have not played 2.0 since the day after it dropped. Terrible patch imo.
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Edited by Tekn0z: 9/16/2015 10:24:34 PMBungie and most of the youtubers logic for nerfing and balance is absolutely retarded. One of the more popular youtubers says guns or blink etc should be balanced for the average player. Sorry. That's the most stupidest way to ruin game balance. You balance based on maximum potential of a gun and not what shtty players do with it. You shouldn't be able to pick up the game and wreck people in the crucible. .. But who am I kidding. T rating with focus on selling it to kids. Gah.. The ways in which bungie tries to balance handcannons is just face palm worthy. The first shot will be less accurate. Excuse me?? What the actual freak. The entire freaking point of using a handcannons is for precision. I swear some of these bandaid "solutions" are just so ridiculous.
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Edited by SwedishBass: 9/14/2015 2:34:27 PMI agree completely. Patch 2.0 completely destroyed two of my favorite PvP weapons; Hopscotch Pilgrim (that's a topic in itself, haha) and The Fulcrum. My Fulcrum was becoming my main Crucible weapon, but now it's been all but ruined. I had the roll with LitC, Braced Frame and Final Round. It had good enough range pre-2.0 for most maps, bar the really large ones. It was truly a precision weapon, in that if you missed a shot, with the low magazine of 6, you became a sitting duck. High risk, high reward. Taking on multiple opponents was a challenge, but not impossible. Post 2.0, however, it's close to useless. Accuracy has been nerfed to the ground. I'm struggling to hit stuff even in close range. Damage drop-off is too severe. It's almost AR bad. The Fulcrum had the best range of it's archetype, and it made the difference between a hit or a miss a lot of the time. Now, IF I hit the target, the damage done is really bad unless I'm within Fusion range (which isn't that far to begin with). You told us our old weapons would still be useful in the Crucible? After spending a day with patch 2.0 doing PvP, that's just not true. It was always the exotic hand cannons that were the problem, not the weapon class in itself. There was no need to nerf legendary hand cannons as well. All that Thorn, TLW (and to a much, much lesser extent Hawkmoon) needed were range nerfs, plus TLW an actual damage drop-off and no ADS bonus damage - and lastly make it so that Thorn poison couldn't kill. None of the legendary HC:s were in need of nerfs. The previous nerf already hit accuracy in PvE something fierce. It was already a struggle hitting crits with some of them, especially Hawkmoon and Fatebringer.
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I was under the impression that your gun shot where you pointed it. Accuracy, as a stat, only increased the size of the hitboxes for you. Meaning that you weren't as good a shot as you thought you were with your thorn or hawkmoon. You were shooting head hitboxes the size of a blimp. If you are still a good shot, then you should still be landing head shots reliably. This is really just a "git gud" issue.
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Good Feedback man. Bump
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Bump.
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Is it even accuracy or rng? It seems like there's a damage block for certain things. Two melee attacks too quick and the damage for the second melee will not register in Crucible. Fkn scrub aid. I've noticed the same using Thorn.
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1 ReplyI completely agree. I was primarily a HC user prior to this patch. I am now rethinking this strategy. The 2.0 patch made HC's terrible regardless of the players competency with them.
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Hand Cannons now have an identity crisis. With their slow rate of fire, terrible body shot damage, small mag, crap accuracy and range all other weapon types simply make them irrelevant.
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Ive been using HCs since beta and they just arent accurate anymore to the point i feel forced to use pulse rifles
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1 ReplyI felt this nerf affected some guns more than others. I can still land headshots with Hawkmoon from a good distance, but I find that even at medium to close range, even if I have the dot right on the person's head, with Thorn, 9 times out of 10 it registers as a body shot, in turn -blam!-ing me over because I can't get the 3 precision shots I need before I get hosed with bullets from the opposition.
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Edited by Howie: 9/15/2015 10:06:39 AMWell put. They've been nerfed in entirely the wrong way. I'm fine with a range reduction, less impact, slower rate of fire etc etc - but not something so random. Over the last week I've experienced enough shots missing at a medium range, despite the crosshair being dead on target, to suggest HCs are no longer a reliable option. Worse than that - they are no longer fun to use.
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I still wreck shit up with my last word. You just need to not suck.
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tldr; I want to go back to only using my hand cannon between heavy ammo drops.
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Switch to accurized ballistics it helps with hit detection. Aggressive is just inconsistent on hawkmoon now.
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12 RepliesWait, if you are at medium range is the 'cone effect' noticeable? I noticed that I reliably got head shots with the thorn from close to mid-range. It was only at long ranges that I noticed that I simply wouldn't be able to consistently land head shots. As it is it seems like they still do take a skilled hand you just have to stick to your ideal range. Tbh its nice because I feel like it does add a lot of realism to the game. If you need to make longer range shots just use a sniper rifle.
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1 ReplyWhat bungie did was make weapons range change based on what type it was. Meaning an auto rifle will have less range than a scout. So for example the last word's range was dramatically decreased. So at short distances it's very effective but at long ranges it is RNG to hit anything, as it was meant to be. This is true for all guns now. If you shoot outside of what the gun is made for you're less likely to hit anything.
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1 ReplyHawkmoon is just an inaccurate gun. With that said, mid-long range is actually [i]beyond[/i] the goal distance for a Hand Cannon. I recommend ditching it all for even the tiniest scrap of range stat you can get and see how that works. I know with my thorn, using "Send It" and "Accurized Ballistics" caused the weapon to be extremely consistent with body shots even at long range -- with "Perfect Balance" and "Aggressive Ballistics" on, it took 5 rounds to hit an enemy trip mine a few feet from me. Try switching your barrel to the one with the highest range Hawkmoon can get, and go "Hammer Forged". It might not work for Hawkmoon, as I feel the gun itself is just not dependable, but it's worth a try. Hawkmoon's whole shtick seems to be luck though, so... good luck.
