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Edited by Shiloh Ivy: 9/5/2015 12:50:13 AM
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Should Christian Marriage licensers be forced to give out Marriage licenses to homosexuals?

Yes, the new law against gay discrimination overrules Freedom of Religion

532

No, Freedom of Religion overrules the new law against gay discrimination

518

I don't know

82

Undecided

106

[b][i]Miley Osiris has abandoned Thread[/i][/b] She left a note saying: Stop replying. [b]Religion is the last word in the first poll option[/b] Simple question, I chose not to use the Kentucky Clerk specifically because she's a hypocrite who picks and chooses which Bible principles she follows by being married four times. So please, keep her ignorance out of the discussion. Here's the question: If I'm a Christian Marriage licenser, am I obligated by Law to give homosexuals marriage licenses? (This isn't Taylored to me, I'm just putting me in as an example and trying to keep this as unbiased as possible) Things to consider: Freedom of Religion states that I can freely practice my religion. It would be against my Christian belief to issue marriage licenses to homosexuals because the Bible clearly condemns Homosexuals. If I issue marriage licenses to them, I'd have to answer to God for it (based on my beliefs). If I quit, then I cannot support myself for the time that I'm gone. It can also be said that forcing me to believe what you believe by forcing me to accept your way of thinking is just as bigoted as refusing service. Does Freedom of Religion, issued via the constitution by our Founding Fathers, overrule Gay discrimination if it's on the basis of upholding my religious beliefs? On the other hand, The Supreme Court issued that Gays be allowed to marry. This act can only be summarized with one word: Unlawful. It is in direct disobedience to the Law, thus I should face its repercussions if I do not follow it. In separating Church and State, which our Founding Fathers agreed upon, religion should have no adherence to the Government. So in affect, I beg the question, is saying "It's against my religion." A suitable excuse to directly disobey the Law? Does the Supreme Court ruling overrule my right to Freedom of Religion even though my actions are in direct violation of the Law? You choose. Edit: Those who chose Freedom of Religion, speak up! Defend your viewpoint like the others are! Edit2: Giving a point to each side. Yes: She is a state employee and an American citizen, she must follow the Law or suffer consequences. No: It can be said that it is [b]unlawful[/b] for someone to refuse marriage licenses, but it's [b]unconstitutional[/b] to punish someone for following their religion. Edit3: For some odd reason, I've returned to find that the Poll and comments don't really coincide. The Poll says she shouldn't be forced to issue the marriage licenses due to her religion, but the comments all argue against. So for the sake of discussion, I give some points. This case is unique. An argument stating that "Well by that logic, Religions can discriminate and get away with it." Anything along those lines is void because that's not what this case is about. It's taking it out of context. Going back to the Clerk, here's the issue: She's a Christian. In the Christian religion, Marriage is an institution of God based on her religion. God clearly and Directly says that he isn't too fond of Gays. So she's saying it would be against her Religious conscience to issue those licenses. The reason this has some merit is the first part. If she had simply said, "My Religion doesn't condone gays, I can't give you these licenses." Then that's simple discrimination that has no basis, or a very little one. But since Marriage is believed to be by God in her Religion, then she has a basis to say, "It would be against my religious conscience to give these Marriage licenses to them." The keyword here is basis. It's the difference between being Hateful (denying them marriage licenses simply because their sexual orientation) and basis (denying them marriage licenses because it's against your religion). In order to avoid the Discrimination clause and fall into the umbrella of Freedom of Religion, you have to justify that it would be against your religious conscience to do the thing in question. If you do that, then you fall underneath your basic Right. Is it fair to punish someone for following their Religion? Is it fair to force someone out of a job because they are following their Religion? Is it even Constitutional? If you are a state employee, are all your rights stripped? If not then the argument that she's a state employee is void. If so, then State legislature overrules the Constitution and I argue why even have a Constitution. [spoiler]The making your own religion argument is unrealistic as well. Because you'd have to get it recognized as an official Religion and enough people to meet the ramifications of a religion, which if you successfully pulled off you'd probably be dead by the time it's recognized. Good Luck![/spoiler] Edit 3: It isn't against the Rasta religion to not smoke weed. It's optional, so they wouldn't have a basis to smoke weed in federal court. [i][u]Click here for the completely Bias view of Miley Osiris![/u][/i] [spoiler] First off, I don't like the Clerk. She's a hypocrite and the kind of person who gives Christians a bad name. Secondly, I don't think they have a [i]clear[/i] basis to throw her in jail for not serving homosexuals since it is against her religion. I believe it simply comes down to personal preference, because by Law, her right to practice her religion is protected by the Constitution, if a Supreme Court ruling can overturn this then we should change the constitution to fit it, which we haven't so I'm inclined to believe it applies. You see how complicated it gets? So it goes back to personal preference and to avoid scrutiny, one in that position with such publicity behind it, one would be forced to rule for the gays. Another thing I find hypocritical is that people generally don't like Christians forcing their morals upon people. This is totally understandable. But are you not forcing this clerk to accept your moral beliefs? Something's to think about. In Separation of Church and State, the State shouldn't make Laws based on specific moral guidelines. They should only make Laws that benefit the State economically or to protect the citizens in it from having their rights infringed on, including morals on it gets messy like this. What I do agree with most of you is that she's not doing her job. But you can't be thrown in jail for not doing your job. If you throw her in jail for violating the new law, then you've thrown her right to freedom of religion out the window. By fairness, the most the Judge should do is demand she be terminated from her Job. If it was me, again my opinion, I'd leave it up to her employer wether he wants someone who will only do half of her job because of religious beliefs. Because I don't have a clear basis to throw her in jail because all she did was not do her job. So she should be fired but not thrown in jail. But of course if she isn't thrown in jail, the backlash would be that of legend. [/spoiler] Edit4: A summary of my bias view [spoiler]You cannot definitively throw her in jail for what she did. You can't throw people in jail for not doing their job. You can fire them, but not throw them in jail because her rights are protected by the constitution in the sense of Freedom of Religion. But you can fire her, so fire her, don't throw her in jail because most she did was not do her job.[/spoiler]

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  • Edited by Yarbey: 9/5/2015 10:30:27 AM
    [spoiler]Attention![/spoiler]As a public servant, your job is to serve the public. That means your religious, and personal beliefs take a backseat to providing the services you are entrusted with. If you are in the private sector it is a different story, but this is a public servant clearly failing in her duties. So no freedom of religion, does not protect you in this case. [spoiler]putting spoilers in to draw attention nvm me [/spoiler] [spoiler]you know the drill[/spoiler] [spoiler]i like pie[/spoiler]

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    • It is part of their job to follow the letter of the law. If your religion doesn't let you do your job you should get another one.

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      • >makes extremely controversial thread >tells people to shut up

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      • Are christians crying discrimination against them because they have been told not to discriminate against others?

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        • Marriage licenses are not exclusively Christian. Let people marry regardless of their orientation.

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        • Edited by Onxide: 9/5/2015 3:16:55 AM
          No one should be forced to do anything, but it should be a choice. If she is standing against the law, that is treason.

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          • Aren't marriage licenses a state related matter?

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          • Edited by Jaws: 9/5/2015 3:31:27 AM
            if you sign up to be a clerk issuing marriage licenses... that's your job and you should do it. BUT, I do sincerely believe that a religious leader (like a pastor) of any religion has all the rights to deny a marriage [b]ceremony[/b] if homosexuality is against their beliefs. A marriage ceremony has nothing to do with the government and pastors shouldn't get punished as they have in the past for denying certain ceremonies. If that happens, I'd like to think it is a good compromise.

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          • The person themselves are not confined by law to grant the marriage license, but it is the responsibility of the state to make sure at least one of their licensers grants that license. Simply put, [b]she[/b] doesn't [b]have[/b] to give the license, but somebody does.

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          • If you think she has the right to deny based on her religion but you think it's not okay for a Muslim woman to deny a marriage license to any woman not wearing a hijab then you are a hypocrite. You are not fighting for religious freedom but for Christian privilege.

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            • When you become a public you enforce the law. Not your religion. You have the right to your religion but not to impose or deny others the right to it.

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            • In a U.S. government entity, religion is separated, and rightfully so. -- Yes, the Christian marriage licenser has to approve such a marriage. Are they forced to? Absolutely not. They may quit at anytime.

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              • The issue is with the complexity of the case. At base value no one should be thrown in jail for refusing to perform their duties as specified by their job description unless it's a matter of national security. It is not unlawful. On the other hand she is making a point against a federal law and in this context she is unlawful. The judge has issued her a court order and even went as far as giving her "lieutenants" the authority to resolve the issue by her consent. This is not against her faith at all. That is another problem I have with this. It's not against God's law to hand someone a license to marry. You aren't asking God to bless their marriage. All in all it wouldn't hurt your standing with God either. God would likely be proud of you for not creating problems and showing others that his love isn't selective. The Bible never actually says its against his law to marry homosexuals. It says that homosexuality is not natural and goes against God's more grand design for humanity. God loves everyone the way any father loves their children. In my opinion, she needs to know that her self importance in the matter of marriage is unnecessary. I think it's deplorable the lengths that the lgbt organization will go to to try and force their beliefs on others but this woman is not innocent either. I wanna make this simple though. She is held in contempt over a court order. Not because the lgbt organization is oppressive social political bullies (which they are).

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                • Yes, law>religion

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                • That would be a violation of the amendment granting freedom of religion.

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                  • I'm not very educated about the U.S constitution but I do know that religion is never an excuse to discriminate against someone because of their personal choices which have no effect on the lives of anyone else. She was elected to that job to give out marriage certificates and refusing to give one to a gay couple isn't allowed due to the recent Supreme Court ruling. She must follow the rules and laws passed by the government and failing to do so will lead to severe consequences. She deserves whatever happens to her.

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                  • This country was founded with freedom of religion as a base.

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                    • Edited by ANGRY ASIAN 500: 9/5/2015 1:58:54 AM
                      They aren't doing their jobs so yeah.

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                    • Religion freedom means you can be of a y religion of your choosing Not force it down peoples faces

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                    • Wow. Freedom of religion means the freedom to personally practice your religion not to impose it on others. To use your religion as a pretense to discriminate on the grounds of personal freedom is hypocritical. No one individual's personal freedom supersedes anothers.

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                    • Edited by SunnyZaBunny: 9/5/2015 1:24:39 AM
                      If you in any way shape or form, work as a representative of the government or law enforcement. You represent [i][b]the law[/b][/i] period. Not your personal beliefs. If you can't handle it, simply resign since you cannot uphold the law and that moral consciousness of yours shall be preserved Ps. Ms Davis was put in jail for not following a court order by a Kentucky court. She was held in contempt of court and put in jail. 100% legal

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                    • Whoa, didn't suspect the poll to be so close.

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                      • I really could care less ether way, but my -blam!-ing god gays are sensitive. What's the matter, your ass hole was stretched too wide and now it's sore? Just move over a row to the next freaking guy in the building. You ruined this girl's job because she stood by her belief. Grow a pair and go back to your dick sword fighting.

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                        • Well, legal marriage isn't holy, so it's not like you're being a heretic.

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                          • Edited by runningfox3: 9/5/2015 12:35:15 AM
                            Gosh darn 42% to 42% this is close as shit

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                          • Nobody should be forced to work at all. That would be slavery, kids.

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