Continued from [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/140720849] Part 5: scout rifles[/url] [b]Hand Cannons[/b] Now we start getting into controversial territory. So, if I understand what you're saying correctly, you're upset because you adjusted Accuracy, Range, and Damage Falloff to try to curb the long range effectiveness of Hand Cannons and people were still able to get cross map kills with Thorn and Hawkmoon. Let me remind you of what happened the last time you tried to nerf an entire weapon class because of the potency of an exotic. Does the name Suros Regime ring a bell? There is, you know, another way to deal with the long range Hand Cannon: start making larger maps. The overwhelming majority of Destinies maps are dominated by close range or at most mid range engagement areas, and those few truly large, open maps are almost never in rotation anyway. Shores of Time and Pantheon are the only ones with long enough sight lines and open enough areas that running a hand cannon or depending on a shotgun becomes limiting. And Pantheon doesn't really count because it's really mostly close quarters anyway. While Xbox doesn't have Hawkmoon yet (and you're giving us a second rate one), I can tell you that the thing that's the most aggravating about thorn isn't its range... it's that people use its DoT like a crutch and run away and hide. An actual long range headshot with a hand cannon on a moving human target requires skill. Outside of Trials of Thorn and Thorn Banner, I really don't see enough Thorns for it to be an issue, and I can speak from firsthand experience that it is entirely possible to outshoot a Thorn with a variety of weapons. The real problem arises when it's all anybody's running, particularly in Trials where death matters so much more. Don't kid yourself, however, dethrone Thorn and whatever the next exotic is that gives people even the slightest perceived advantage will take its place. Oh, and you know what's 10x worse than the cheapest Thorn kill? Being one shot by a shotgun from outside of fusion rifle range. Now, as for pve, most of what I said about scout rifles goes here too. People like scout rifles. People like hand cannons. As they are now, they're fun, satisfying, effective weapons to use in a variety of enemy encounters. [b]Don't screw that up.[/b] If the end result of these changes is that the two classes feel distinct, but even just one of them no longer actually feels good, you'll have made a mistake. Feeling distinct is secondary to actually being fun to use. So you've landed on exaggerating the magazine and damage fall off disparity between the two classes. For hand cannons this means smaller mags and closer effective ranges. I'm not really sure how much this will affect the class' effectiveness, but I predict it'll be less popular as most people can't tolerate small magazines. Goals: * Hand Cannons are optimal at close to medium range – makes sense, so long as its challenging yet still feasible to land a long range headshot. The gun shouldn't punish you for being able to aim, it should just require a good deal of proficiency to push the weapon's maximum range. * Hand Cannons are optimal when shots are paced, but become less effective when fired quickly – given that they're supposed to kick like mules, this makes perfect sense for the weapon class. * Rewards agility under fire, precision targeting, and snap shots – alright, now you lost me Bungie. So, you want to reward guardians who have the skill to quick draw and precision snap shot enemies while under fire, and yet you nerfed hand cannon's accuracy and initial accuracy after being drawn and are about to nerf it again? You can't have it both ways. If you're not careful, you're just going to end up nerfing hand cannons to the point that we might as well just use an auto rifle... which is exactly where the pvp meta game was at when Destiny released and Suros was king. Nobody in their right mind brough a hand cannon to a Suros fight. Then again, nobody ever accused me of being in my right mind. Careful Bungie, making the same mistakes twice is never endearing. * Hand Cannons cannot reliably compete with Scout Rifles at long range – Ok, but you do realize that hand cannons currently can't compete with scout rifles at long range, right? Even with the craziest grandfathered in hand cannon builds, it is incredibly difficult to outshoot a scout at long range. Even with max range hand cannons. Why? Because scout rifles have only slightly less damage, shoot faster, and have better zoom. Stop judging every weapon class by its Thorn. Yes, shotguns have a major problem because it is easy to forge your own absurd range shotty. You don't even need a Felwinter any more, any Judgment, Party Crasher, Matador, or Her Courtesy will do. Don't turn hand cannons into high impact sidearms, Thorn and Last Word can be individually tweaked. Changes: * Start damage falloff closer to the player to limit long range lethality – careful Bungie, if hand cannons don't have a range advantage over auto rifles we're just going to be back where we started out a year ago, with hardly anyone using them. * Small reduction in ADS accuracy, targeted at making long range snap-shooting less reliable – you already did this, you don't need to do it again, or conversely, you don't need to reduce base Optics. Both of these changes have the same practical effect: more difficult long range shots. Plus, you're already nerfing damage falloff. All three of these are probably going to be overkill. * Reduce final accuracy when firing from hip. Fast firing from hip is less reliable – while I suppose I can get behind this, the problem I have is that if people try to rush you while you've got a hand cannon out, this is pretty much the only thing you can do, and its not exactly easy to pull off. If you're trying to force hand cannons to be less effective at range, and you refuse to make them effective at close quarters, you're just going to end up with an inferior weapon class. * Reduce magazine size for all base inventory stats – a lot of people probably take issue with this, but small mag hand cannons never intimidated me; I like final round and luck in the chamber. Given that we xbox guardians are being given broken hawkmoons, I may just end up using a final round luck in the chamber smallbore ill will over my nerfmoon anyway. * Reduce base Optics (zoom) for all Hand Cannons. ADS now grants more width in favor of depth. Of all your nerfs dedicated to limiting hand cannon effectiveness at range (why you haven't thought of decreasing Thorn's aim assist is beyond me), this is the one that makes the most sense to me. Why? Because hand cannons already have reduced zoom, drop that zoom further and it requires far more skill to make that long range headshot, and that long range headshot becomes: a) far less common and b) far more rewarding. Sure, you might still get cross-mapped from time to time, but when you get snap-headshotted by an NLB or any other sniper for that matter at close range while you're firing on them, don't you just call that skill? Bungie, I think you're at high risk of nerfing Hand Cannons into oblivion. Is there some sort of useless weapon quota that must be maintained at all times you're not telling us about? The two real problem hand cannons are exotics and can be dealt with specifically. You don't need to nerf accuracy, damage falloff, and zoom; any one of those will do. If you want to make hand cannons more satisfying, just nerf the zoom, and your problem will be solved: only the most skilled will be able to cross map. Pick between accuracy and zoom, a little more falloff is fine, but if you do all three of these you're probably just going to end up with a less viable alternative to auto rifles. Continued in [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/140754145]part 7: Hawkmoon[/url]