There is a lot wrong with this post, I understand not being happy about things, but there are many things wrong about this post people need to understand. Problem 1: You hint at the bungie's story being a shell of itself. Well that can only really address the base game, it has only made huge improvements since then, especially with HoW. There are vast assumptions about how Activision and bungie influence took place, we don't know why certain staff quit or why things had to be changed. Some of those things may be highly personal. And when addressing an incredibly high standard that bungie had to meet with designing a new high budget game. That is the nature of all high budget games, not just destiny. Bungie has already agreed multiple times that they did not reach the bar of success they had hoped with the base game. They aren't hiding under a rock or ignoring it (that also doesn't mean they should address every individual fan, and they are absolutely entitled to respond once and leave it at that. If you have the time to type such a long post you have time to check twitter. Bungie has been quoted saying, "we are our worst critics." and that they always think they can do more. - http://www.gamespresso.com/2015/07/09/bungie-isnt-satisfied-with-destiny-still-a-ridiculous-amount-of-work-to-do/ Problem 2: You call the game early access up to this point. That's nothing but childish. You repeat that phrase throughout the post yet there is nothing factual or opinionated about it, it's more likened to childish name calling. They have released a game with enough content for people include yourself to invest hundreds of hours, that is no demo. Also they have added content, and much of it was free. Problem 3: You reference a reddit post, well not really reference, more of hinting at the addiction aspect of destiny then throw in a random link that you never mention again. In the reddit post, the guy mentions nothing of if Destiny broke the trend, it is purely speculation as to if this guy's formula was used in Destiny. As to respond to that, I would say almost certainly. and if so, so what? What developer doesnt want to make an excellent game that people want to play forever? Many games have followed this principle, and Destiny is not the first (see WoW, Diablo to name a few games off the top of my head.) The fact that this bungie employee was smart enough to analyze it and quantify it in writing is pretty fantastic, I bet that man would be amazing to talk to in person. Problem 4: You say vault space isn't going to be fixed. That is a very definitive statement to make for one who knows nothing of what happens behind Bungie doors. Also, it was improved once (https://www.bungie.net/7_Destiny-Update---04142015/en/News/News?aid=12773), so clearly they are listening. Problem 5: You claim that the smaller vault is purposeful to force the user to "change their habits." Im very curious as to how you came to that conclusion and speak so definitively about it? Do you have a quote to pack this up? Otherwise you need to state that this is simply how you feel. because continuing to use the guns you prefer doesn't require more vault space. Problem 6: You claim that the vault space wouldnt be a big problem if the dlc guns were better, but that doesnt make any sense either, because if you are running out of space that only means, you are collecting both previous and dlc guns. You also pose a question asking how do they combat it, then go on to mention the weapons 2.0 update, and wonder why people are being punished for overuse of favorite weapons, but the thing is that if you were thinking logically, you would know that having only a few favorite weapons would actually keep the vault clean more so, but you make the opposite, contradictory argument, and you never bring it back around to vault space, you just keep going on your random thought train. Problem 7: You claim that the nerfs are because of over use. However Bungie does not claim this. Even though they reference the use of guns like thorn in iron banner and ToO, they only bring these charts up (Weapons Tuning 2.0 New Post) to bring context to the fact that the gun is overpowered, and therefore being used alot, go read the paragraph immediately after the graph highlighting thorn's high use. Your logic stopped one step short by blaming the use of the gun instead of asking why it was being overused. That is an important question in the process. Your missed context here is blaming the gun nerf on over use. But that is not correct at all. Problem 8: This was my favorite one, i literally laughed out loud on some of these parts. The problem is that you assume things about the quality of the gun but provide not context or facts to back it up, you just see nerf in front of a weapon's name and assume it's going to shit, just because auto rifles died. The funny thing is that right now, auto rifles are the only unused gun type. all other guns are fairly balanced. (see datto tweet train). How can you genuinely think positively about this game, but be soo blindingly ciritcal of something that hasn't even happened yet? You claim, "What's worse is that X1 gamers are going to be excluded from realizing how amazing Hawkmoon was in PvP. It was the perfect counter Thorn.... An exclusive weapon that is set to drop Sept 15th will be invalidated before x1 gamers get a chance to use it. Such a shame." If you don't give valid argument to anything, please give me a valid argument for how the hell this is true? People if you read OP and read me as well, please know that this statement is COMPLETELY FALSE. It will still have 3 random bullets with bonus damage, it will still have higher impact than thorn, the only thing that changes is it''s very high range (which thorn is losing as well), and it can no longer have all the lic damage's proc on the same bullet. In essence it stops the one shot kill, it can still two shot and is still incredibly dangerous weapon. It will still outgun Thorn in good hands (and with a bit of luck) If you have proof of an argument otherwise, bring it on (but you don't, because there isn't any) Problem 9: This is my second favorite and revolves around the PvE complaints you make around the nerf of specific weapons. mainly G-horn, Black Hammer, and Icebreaker. These weapons will not be AS deadly as they were previously to allow other guns to be closer in competition. You give no proof the incapability or dominance of these weapons? If you think they are useless know, prove it. Don't just make some innacurate claim with no evidence. In your talk on g-horn, you talk about how much you covet the gun, and how all the LFG people who refused to let you in their groups if you didnt have it only motivated you. "It made my angry but more determined, to start building three characters and running strikes, NF's, and Raids consistently until [I] finally got one 800+ hours into the game" (numbers are not relevant, some have logged more hours than you but got the gun in the first two weeks) You go on to say, "But then is that the gamer's fault or the failure of Bungie to introduce a matchmaking system within Destiny?" Again here you choose to conveniently ignore the negative sides to matchmaking and how this can certainly create gamers that are just as ineffective as if you had not played in the first place. here is the contradiction I want to point out the most: You claim that G-horn drove you to play MORE. Yet later on in the post you say, "When quarterly earning are announced from Activision, Wall St. analysts and investors demand to know how Destiny is doing from a user engagement standpoint. By destroying our OP weapons this will cause our engagement levels on all activities [to] rise dramatically from week to week." Okay which one is it? Are they making you play more by making an OP gun that is impossible to get, or by nerfing them and making them less effective? It is a complete contradiction. You also have no idea what you are talking about and it is a brash overstatement with NO source that you make the earning quote. Yet you say you cite sources and have been gathering information... This is incredibly biased and misinformed. I hope no one actually believes this crap you are making up out of pure frustration. Knowing that this is a stupid argument to make, you go ahead and make a counter argument in advance. you claim that the strategy changes, but again you don't say how and have no sources for your claim? Its a 3 second nerf to Icebreaker. Let's be honest if you want to sit back there still, you will. But there is no proof out yet that strikes are taking longer, so why do you make these accusations? From personal experience some of my funnest strikes have been without any of these. In fact, like you, I have three characters on both systems. Right now I dont have icebreaker, ghorn, or black hammer on xbox. But strikes are not taking too long, I don't feel useless or powerless. I'm having fun using the guns I have and still breezing through. The reason I can breeze through is not the type of guns I have as much as it is my knowledge of the strikes and how to play them well.

I'll be playing borderland until they fix there shit. I might help my friends if they ask for it but that's about it.

Hey man I brought my Lego's and maybe we can play!

I really think the weapon balance complaint is overblown. Here's why: 1) People are complaining about something that hasn't even happened yet. Until you try out the new system and see how it works in reality you have no basis for complaint. 2) Many of the nerfs will have little to no impact. Wolfpack rounds won't do as much damage? Boo hoo! Blast radius is increased so there! You don't get free ammo with the Black Hammer anymore? Gee, I guess you'll just have to live with the 400 or so special ammo drops lying around. The killer one for me is people whining about having to wait an extra 3 seconds to get an Icebreaker shot... Like it's some kind of personal affront. Look, you waited 5 seconds, you can wait an extra 3.

[quote]I’ve debated on making this post. It’s been a long time coming. After the Weapons 2.0 update, I could not ignore the discussion any longer. I genuinely did care for this game and wanted Bungie to succeed, but now I’m indifferent to the company and game. My Background: I have been a Bungie fan since Halo 1. I have over 10+ days worth of game time (1600 hrs on X1, several hundred on PS4). I'm 34 on all characters X1. 100% achievements. I’m around level 30 on all PS4 characters. Bungie: There is no excuse for mediocrity. I’ve been here from the beginning since the days of Halo 1. From Bungie we have witness 20 years of game making at it’s finest: story, music, firefights, forge, multiplayer. Sure there were bumps in the road, but those games have withstood the test of time. Truth is Destiny had a ton of potential and failed on meeting the bar that they set. In defense of Bungie, I have to honestly say this was more of Bungie’s partnership with Activision. To give a developer $500M over the course of a 10yr ambitious game, investor and publisher pressures needed to be met. Several years of hard work were canned due to bad project management and to meet expectations. What was famously shown in prior e3s to the story now and game design now shows the product players received was a shell of it’s former glory as Activision forced Bungie to make it more accessible to casual and younger gamers and make more profits by developing for older last gen consoles. This created severe limitations on the ambitions of Destiny.It’s very noticeable on the game itself as many Year One Vets (YOV) have seen: 1) Unused potentially wasted areas, invisible walls, death borders, etc. 2) The story got butchered as the decision was made to chop up the story into DLCs (Josh Staten quit). 3) Technical issues as the game was developed for 360 and PS3 diminished what they could do (graphics upscaled, gameplay (number of enemies, complexity of AI, size of maps, variation of enemies, coordination, etc.) and vault limitations that have not been addressed (Bungie has stated that additional solutions would come, but it’s been ignored). 4) Decisions to go with peer to peer servers, DLC content or lack thereof to save costs, and rushed game to secure the year window where Destiny faced a complete lack of competition. Unlike an "early access" title which you pay for up front and they continue to add to the game up to full release, Bungie has sold us an "early access" game where we have to pay extra for everything that makes it a complete game. In short, the time you put in doesn't match up with the rewards you get. Year One Vets were true QA testers for this game. YOV summary and final conclusion: There's a lot to like: The game design is beautiful, the score is fantastic, and the gameplay is tight and incredibly addicting. As in most traditional games, most gamers apex in hours gaming is about 2-3 months before a steady to sharp fall off. Destiny broke that trend successfully is debatable: https://m.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/2itlvw/destiny_addictive_formula_detailed_by_bungie/ Year One Weapons and Weapons 2.0 Updates on Sept 15th Deej commented in regards to Year 1 ascended weapons and vault space http://youtu.be/s8SwrFn-oZE when TTK releases (skip to the 10:30, 12:20 mark). Vault space isn’t going to be improved. This is all in a drive to force the user to make changes to their habits as their user research claims that we only use a handful of weapons. If the DLC had better weapons designed (black hammer being the exception, we would have happily switched to those weapons). The problem is they released arguably the best 19 exotics and legendary weapons day one. How do you combat this? Well the recent post from Bungie https://www.bungie.net/en/News/News?aid=13147 is bringing heavily criticized buffs and nerfs within Destiny to all of our fav weapons we like to use. Why are YOV and gamers being punished for overuse of favorite weapons? With the buffs to Necrochasm and No Land Beyonds, if we overuse them, are they next? Essentially what they are doing is all of the weapon collecting and ascension worthless. PvP: I don’t want to debate this too much as it’s an extremely divisive issue. What’s worse is that X1 gamers are going to be excluded from realizing how amazing Hawkmoon was in PvP. It was the prefct counter Thorn. I’ve seen it in action on the PS4 and it’s amazing. On the X1, until the recent Iron Banner, I never had a Thorn. Frustratingly I died at the hands of this weapon countless times until I started to utilize defensive positions and weapons that could counter this weapon. I never complained about it, and toughed it out. [b]An exclusive weapon that is set to drop on Sept 15th will be invalidated before x1 gamers get a chance to use it. Such a shame.[/b] PvE: Gjallarhorn, Ice Breaker (Patience & Time 2.0, P&T2.0), and Black Hammer getting nerfed. This is the biggest issue I have. I personally feel bad for those that don’t have Gallarhorn or just recently got it and will only have a month and half to enjoy this coveted weapon. It truly is a game changer. If you buy the argument that Gjallarhorn made those that wanted to run raids and strikes “gballer” only teams. In the beginning, I was in this category. It made me angry, but more determined since I was excluded from raids and NFs with many friends on my list as the difficulty and newness/glitchiness of the events made it extremely difficult to carry a non-gballer. Not until building three characters and running strikes, NFs, and Raids consistently did I finally get one 800+ hours into the game. Did those that complained did not actively seek out the right people on LFG. Are they not social enough? But then is that the gamer’s fault? Or the failure of Bungie to introduce a matchmaking system within Destiny? P&T2.0 and Black Hammer nerfs are more puzzling. Why mess with this setup? Is it because of the overuse of these weapons? Were there complaints from gamers and YOVs that the levels were too easy or the weapons were too OP? If Year One weapons will not ascend to year two why do they need to be nerfed? They will eventually be invalidated anyways. There’s a more to this than just societal exclusion argument. YOVs have run through every PoE, raid, strike, and nightfall with these crucial weapons to overcome the lackadaisical level design and enemy/boss fights that we all know that are just glorified mini-firefights (PoE obviously is) and bullets within an hour or less to move on to run it on another character or timely event. So why would Bungie want to nerf these OP weapons? [u][b]When quarterly earnings are announced from Activision, Wall St. analysts and investors demand to know how Destiny is doing from a user engagement standpoint. By destroying our OP weapons this will cause our engagements levels on all activities rise dramatically from week to week. Especially with this fall (all the triple AAA titles coming out), what better way to keep YOV and new noobs who have bought the collector’s edition to remain engaged.[/b][/u] If you argue against this, think about NF run at Phogoth (Icebreaker), Oracles & Templar Checkpoint (Icebreaker, GHorn, Black hammer) Skolas (GHorn), Valus/Tank (black hammer, ghorn, icebreaker), Walker battler Sepiks Prime (Ice Breaker, Black Hammer), Crota Run (GHorn), PoEs. The strategy changes guardians, and not for the better. YEAR 1 VETS PRIZE: So after the Luke Smith/Deej comments, rebuttal, and the egregious greed on exclusivity and pricing from Bungie what was the “reward”? After you finish all the “tasks” you get an emblem. That's it. All the toils and trauma from glitches, patches, nerfs, and buffs that we endure. All I get as a thank you for being a QA tester forking over ridiculous money is an emblem. But if we spend $20 we can get all the new cool exclusives when TTK launches as well. On top of that all the weapon adjustments that will launch will make us feel more engaged and challenged to do all the events in Destiny. I feel so blessed to put it in even more hours. PvP will be rebalanced. All the work put in for Thorn, bounty attaining coveted Iron Banner weapons, motes & glimmer spent on re-rolls for weapons will be for nothing. Trials? Forget the stats and perks you will get on those weapons. Hey if that's their decision to reward us dedicated folks to make us happy, so be it. Their business decision has been made. So have I. Conclusion: Bungie does not want you to play Destiny your own unique way. You must conform to the way they want you to play it. Bungie is making this game accessible and pricing attractive to noobs for rewards this fall and the lessons learned from YOV experiment is over. Bungie always said, “no weapon class or weapon will dominate and be overused”. Great so if all weapons are meant to be vanilla than so be it. What is the argument and reason to own exotics and legendaries? All weapons classes must be leveled? Aside from supers and jumps, how is Destiny any different from Halo, CoD, Battlefield, Battlefront, and every other first person shooter that have same stats/perks. If we can’t differentiate ourselves and earn the weapons we so proudly work for, what’s left for us in the game?!? The Year One Vets like myself may start being in a smaller minority these days. Our voices haven't been heard. Our complaints that for the most part are for betterment of the game still have fallen on deaf ears. I'll continue to play the raids, NFs, and Weeklies until they conveniently raise the levels for those strikes to push me and non-DLC buyers out. PROUD TO BE A YEAR ONE VET SIGNING OFF UNTIL DESTINY 2 or THE BETTERMENT OF THE GAME OCCURS.[/quote] Totally agree with you good post

Bump

Well put mate in total agreement with you

Beautifully summed up great post, from another year one vet who won't buy a damn thing from bungie until I see improvement

Hawkmoon will be exactly the same for Xbox players as it is now for ps users. They are adding two bullets to the mag because they are already taking two away from all handcannons. It will still have 13 in the mag Edit you also say why nerf ice breaker when all year one weapons will be left behind? Exotics won't be left behind they will be upgradable like they always have been. Lots of biased mis information that you use to tweek things in your favor. You make some good points regarding early destiny but this set of balancing will make the game better. If you truly love this game you would see all these changes ( black hammer, icebreaker excluded) needed to be made

Tl:Dr Shut up meg

How to address good weapons? Make better weapons. Don't ruin the old ones.

Great post. Well said.

I totally agree. Bungie has never cared, or listened to this community. They may have charts and graphs to show you whats being used and disregarded, but its all smoke and mirrors. If they gave an ounce of care for this community they would respond, but deej is too busy writing is next smug ass update. Basically bungie just erased all of my hours grinding for these weapons, just to shit on them. Nobody can honestly justify nerfing the black hammer, gally or icebreaker. We as players use the weapons you made to our advantage. Not to exploit it. Why create these unique weapons? You want us all to carry the same shit, look the same? We have these exotics to be unique. I tell you what deej and Cozmo, your whole become legend is a bunch of bullshit! We are becoming what you want us to be, use what you want us to use plain and simple!

Well put, sir. Bump.

Best post I've read on these forums in a long, long time. Been playing on Xbone since launch, got my gjallarhorn a few weeks ago around the 670 hour mark. Wasn't at all surprised to see it on the chopping block, not because it's op, but because I finally got it. I'd much rather they spent their time working on the servers, still don't have any vault completions due to Beatles/weasels, instead of "fixing" all the weapons. I'm still on the fence with buying TTK, it's going to have to be more than re skinned enemies that I've been fighting since day 1.