[quote]I'm sorry is it funny being wrong? Both Bungie and I agree in how they should be balancing [i]their[/i] game? Yet [i]we[/i] are all wrong? And you are right? You are right... That is pretty funny now that it becomes clearer. You can sit on yet more conjecture (as usual) about how I will react when Thorn inevitably gets nerfed. But you heard it here first... Please bookmark it now so you can use it my "inevitable" future nerf threads. Here's my balance take: Pulse rifles are perfect. Never change them again. All Handcannons are well balanced save for two of the three exotic ones. Thorn because it's too good at everything, and TLW because it's glitched. Auto rifles need a substantial buff to where they were before the second nerf. They were perfect then. Scout rifles need a small buff. I'd like to see a ROF buff to all models so they can stay competitive with PR's. Snipers are snipers... Final round doesn't bother me - as there is a larger risk for missing. Shotguns can still make me scratch my head sometimes at their range... But whatever, it was my fault for letting him close the distance. I can deal. Fusions can still be good, but I miss the launch version. I'd like to see them restored. And heavy weapons are fine. There you go mate... This completely invalidates your claims about my "agenda". Use it all you want. My actual agenda is to persuade the masses that more balance = more fun for everyone. And I know Bungie feels the same way. Putting that into practice however, is [b]very[/b] difficult... I'm sure. Currently, Thorn is ruining that goal, and I am trying to convince the masses my friend. Not get my way.... And finally, Thorn doesn't make me salty at all. It [b]bores[/b] me, and it makes me weep how people use whatever is the clear cut best rather than choosing a gun that best fits [b]them[/b]. The solution is having [b]no[/b] clear cut best. But rather give and take [b]options[/b]. I'm here to help Bungie make their goal happen. I get... "Passionate" in Thorn threads, not because Thorn makes me mad... Idiots however... Make me salty.[/quote] Thorn is to good you said....but, Last Word shoots faster. And Red Hand during TDB has AoE, Thorn doesn't. Thorn only has 9 shots. Thorn takes up a large portion of the screen. Other hand cannons dont. I don't think thorn is a problem I recently obtained it. It's very nice but I prefer other weapons over it. It has its use but I don't think it needs to be a topic of huge debate.

[quote]It bores me, and it makes me weep how people use whatever is the clear cut best rather than choosing a gun that best fits them.[/quote] Then you do not understand people...at all... Path of least resistence - that is what 90% of the population will take. If they see a gun that will net them kills, hear about an awesome gun from a friend, et cetera, then they will use it. The Thorn may be cheap, but they see it as effective, and thus flock to it. However, I will say this again: OVERUSED =/= OVERPOWERED. Just because a lot of people use the weapon does not classify it as "OP". It simply classifies it as popular. BIG DIFFERENCE. The Thorn is not the end-all-be-all gun in every single guardian's hands. There are people who can not use it all. I have met them numerous times in PvP. There are your players who are "meh" with the gun at best (myself included). And there are people who are sensational with that gun in hand. But it all centers around a player's skill, and not necessarily the weapon itself. DoT may be a headache to deal with, but if you play smart, it is not diffcult to avoid. Personally, I think Bungie screwed themselves over severely from the jump with their weapon classes. They blurred the lines too far with many weapons, allowing certain guns to move into another classes territory with ease. AR's should be your close quarters best friend, but far too many became lords of the mid range as well, and a few even diving into scout rifle territory. When PR's dropped, they were garbage save a few common and uncommons, and of course Red Death. But then, in classic Bungie style, they neutered the Red Death, making it nigh worthless until the last class buff. And why were the vast majority of PR's worthless? Nearly maxed ROF, and next to no impact. They were basically AR's without the full auto - effective at clase range only, and only against other crap PR's. In my opinion, the last weapopn tuning should not have just done a blanket sweep of weapon classes, but actually address the issues at hand: Great ROF and High Impact AR's are what was causing the population to flock to that class. It was a gun that, for most maps, reigned supreme because it hit like a truck and covered a distance. What they should have done was address the impact only - tune it down, not simply chop a percentage off the entire class. The opposite with PR's - they should have merely addressed the crap impact that the vst majority of PR's had, not buff the entire class. Those 3 rounds from a PR should have hit harder than 3 rounds fired from an AR, but they didn't - THAT was the problem. DPS was garbage. That 10% has done wonders (basically ~+9 damage every burst - more for crits), but they would have been better to simply adjust the impact on the weapon class over the sweeping class buff. I actually agree with you on scouts - their ROF tuned up would be nice. But that is one of the reasons I love the MIDA: the exotic perk allows for ROF manipulation. ;-) Final round does not bother me either, but I have always though the reload speed should be reduced on those specific snipers - too many PvP games started, and all I would hear is sniper rounds going off in the distance, from people simply looking for that freebie kill from the jump. Shotguns are fine. Felwinter's can be bothersome, but like you said: if they got close enough to you, then it is only your fault. Heavies I have no complaints about either. See bud: there is a lot of common ground we actually share. No need to get so salty just because I think the Thorn should be left alone. ;-)

Oh I love this as well because your so right! He will be back to complain about balance yet again. FACT is ( I said fact because I know he likes to cuddle with these ) that it is a game dealing with multiple classes and weapons and skills and perks and dmg... that are all incredibly hard to balance and still keep it uniquely open to all play styles and players. I want to feel like I'm playing my exo who has void around his palms and a no land beyond strapped to his back knowing he can make guardians freak knowing they were killed by that gun. I don't want to be a carbon copy with a pallet swap all the same guns and skills because it's balanced that way perfectly.