The only thing that i care to correct is that more than 50% use thorn is not correct. https://www.bungie.net/en/News/News?aid=13154 Here they show that the percentage for Iron Banner, where players would be more inclined to use "OP" weapons to get an advantage (which the attendance of this Iron Banner was likely just as high or higher than normal crucible by those that use their "strongest" weapons, aka thorn and all other guns in the chart), that use the thorn is at Basically 25%. I highly doubt that you obtained legitimate information through a statistical, unbiased sampling process to determine that it is greater than 50%, and i find this even more so doubtful because it is highly unlikely for the sheer number of Thorns in the crucible to increase by 100% in a mere rough 50 days. I have nothing to address in the rest of your comment. I don't care about it nor do i care what happens or doesn't happen to thorn. I have only provided this comment to try and get you to legitimize your post when you try to use "factual" information that you cant back up with hard data.

I agree. I used to delete anyone who had a thorn equipped but some real life fried a got pissed. Don't let these crutch using little bitches live in denial about their own shitty abilities

Fully agree

Thanks for bumping my post. Stay clueless! Bye!

You know I'm so sick of hearing you guys saying the same thing... Yes... I tend to do well, even against thorn. But I'm sick have having to deal with only [b]one damn gun[/b] There is so many guns to use in crucible, But more and more people are just using Thorn. I've already stated why, and if you deny that Thorn is becoming so prevalent, you're just simply blind, ignorant or just incredibly biased. As you've stated, I play a lot of crucible, and I do well. So that means 1: I'm not just saying this because im getting owned by it... Clearly 2. I have an excellent idea of the state of one or two guns' over prevalence. So would I make this up? I wouldn't. But as more and more people only use 1 gun. This game gets less fun.... And everyone denies it now, but if the problem persists and exponentially keep getting worse. People will come around... And I'll be right here ,Most likely playing something more fun, saying I told you so.

[quote]I'm sorry is it funny being wrong? Both Bungie and I agree in how they should be balancing [i]their[/i] game? Yet [i]we[/i] are all wrong? And you are right? You are right... That is pretty funny now that it becomes clearer. You can sit on yet more conjecture (as usual) about how I will react when Thorn inevitably gets nerfed. But you heard it here first... Please bookmark it now so you can use it my "inevitable" future nerf threads. Here's my balance take: Pulse rifles are perfect. Never change them again. All Handcannons are well balanced save for two of the three exotic ones. Thorn because it's too good at everything, and TLW because it's glitched. Auto rifles need a substantial buff to where they were before the second nerf. They were perfect then. Scout rifles need a small buff. I'd like to see a ROF buff to all models so they can stay competitive with PR's. Snipers are snipers... Final round doesn't bother me - as there is a larger risk for missing. Shotguns can still make me scratch my head sometimes at their range... But whatever, it was my fault for letting him close the distance. I can deal. Fusions can still be good, but I miss the launch version. I'd like to see them restored. And heavy weapons are fine. There you go mate... This completely invalidates your claims about my "agenda". Use it all you want. My actual agenda is to persuade the masses that more balance = more fun for everyone. And I know Bungie feels the same way. Putting that into practice however, is [b]very[/b] difficult... I'm sure. Currently, Thorn is ruining that goal, and I am trying to convince the masses my friend. Not get my way.... And finally, Thorn doesn't make me salty at all. It [b]bores[/b] me, and it makes me weep how people use whatever is the clear cut best rather than choosing a gun that best fits [b]them[/b]. The solution is having [b]no[/b] clear cut best. But rather give and take [b]options[/b]. I'm here to help Bungie make their goal happen. I get... "Passionate" in Thorn threads, not because Thorn makes me mad... Idiots however... Make me salty.[/quote] Thorn is to good you said....but, Last Word shoots faster. And Red Hand during TDB has AoE, Thorn doesn't. Thorn only has 9 shots. Thorn takes up a large portion of the screen. Other hand cannons dont. I don't think thorn is a problem I recently obtained it. It's very nice but I prefer other weapons over it. It has its use but I don't think it needs to be a topic of huge debate.

[quote]It bores me, and it makes me weep how people use whatever is the clear cut best rather than choosing a gun that best fits them.[/quote] Then you do not understand people...at all... Path of least resistence - that is what 90% of the population will take. If they see a gun that will net them kills, hear about an awesome gun from a friend, et cetera, then they will use it. The Thorn may be cheap, but they see it as effective, and thus flock to it. However, I will say this again: OVERUSED =/= OVERPOWERED. Just because a lot of people use the weapon does not classify it as "OP". It simply classifies it as popular. BIG DIFFERENCE. The Thorn is not the end-all-be-all gun in every single guardian's hands. There are people who can not use it all. I have met them numerous times in PvP. There are your players who are "meh" with the gun at best (myself included). And there are people who are sensational with that gun in hand. But it all centers around a player's skill, and not necessarily the weapon itself. DoT may be a headache to deal with, but if you play smart, it is not diffcult to avoid. Personally, I think Bungie screwed themselves over severely from the jump with their weapon classes. They blurred the lines too far with many weapons, allowing certain guns to move into another classes territory with ease. AR's should be your close quarters best friend, but far too many became lords of the mid range as well, and a few even diving into scout rifle territory. When PR's dropped, they were garbage save a few common and uncommons, and of course Red Death. But then, in classic Bungie style, they neutered the Red Death, making it nigh worthless until the last class buff. And why were the vast majority of PR's worthless? Nearly maxed ROF, and next to no impact. They were basically AR's without the full auto - effective at clase range only, and only against other crap PR's. In my opinion, the last weapopn tuning should not have just done a blanket sweep of weapon classes, but actually address the issues at hand: Great ROF and High Impact AR's are what was causing the population to flock to that class. It was a gun that, for most maps, reigned supreme because it hit like a truck and covered a distance. What they should have done was address the impact only - tune it down, not simply chop a percentage off the entire class. The opposite with PR's - they should have merely addressed the crap impact that the vst majority of PR's had, not buff the entire class. Those 3 rounds from a PR should have hit harder than 3 rounds fired from an AR, but they didn't - THAT was the problem. DPS was garbage. That 10% has done wonders (basically ~+9 damage every burst - more for crits), but they would have been better to simply adjust the impact on the weapon class over the sweeping class buff. I actually agree with you on scouts - their ROF tuned up would be nice. But that is one of the reasons I love the MIDA: the exotic perk allows for ROF manipulation. ;-) Final round does not bother me either, but I have always though the reload speed should be reduced on those specific snipers - too many PvP games started, and all I would hear is sniper rounds going off in the distance, from people simply looking for that freebie kill from the jump. Shotguns are fine. Felwinter's can be bothersome, but like you said: if they got close enough to you, then it is only your fault. Heavies I have no complaints about either. See bud: there is a lot of common ground we actually share. No need to get so salty just because I think the Thorn should be left alone. ;-)

Oh I love this as well because your so right! He will be back to complain about balance yet again. FACT is ( I said fact because I know he likes to cuddle with these ) that it is a game dealing with multiple classes and weapons and skills and perks and dmg... that are all incredibly hard to balance and still keep it uniquely open to all play styles and players. I want to feel like I'm playing my exo who has void around his palms and a no land beyond strapped to his back knowing he can make guardians freak knowing they were killed by that gun. I don't want to be a carbon copy with a pallet swap all the same guns and skills because it's balanced that way perfectly.

red death > thorn. I -blam!- up thorn users with ease. it makes me wonder why someone would write an article how the 2nd best PVP gun is OP. only way thorn stands a chance is because the DoT still trickles health even after the user is dead. getting a postmortem with a primary weapon is bullshit anyway as I'm sure you agree. you guys are circling the wagons on quodron and not skolas.

The only thing in your reply that you claim makes Thorn OP is its range? I will argue this is only a problem for the people who die at long range to Thorn. And those people were probably trying to snipe and we're not moveing. If you take away Thorns range you take away what the gun is. It's a hand cannon. ALSO REMEMBER THAT THIS GUN IS EXOTIC! Meaning it's unusual, strange, or unique. So it can shoot well at long range but I never die to a thorn at long range unless I make the mistake of taking shots from it. Blah blah I can see that's what your thinking. So because you can't take cover means bungie should nerf the gun I like to use. Thanks take away my crutch.. oh wait.. that was you talking through your ... gjalla. I love the gun because it let's me track you with the poison dmg. Not because I can supposedly out snipe a sniper. Sigh. It's difficult to change someone's opinion on something they hate so much. I hate suros for the same sort of reasons people hate thorn. Thing is, everyone can get a thorn! I have never gotten a suros! 6 Gjalla, but no suros. I could have gotten 5 Thorns with all the bounties I have gotten while playing and I'm a day one player. So that's why I wanted a nerf to suros, unreasonable as it was! Just because I couldn't get it and kept dieing to it I cried nerf! Now look! The gun sits in players vaults. (Some still use it) i hope no exotic ever goes from good to junk. I do hope they pull back the range on shotguns. If you want to reply I will read it and consider your opinion if you have something other than range. Don't tell me oh it can kill so quick.. so can other guns.

I don't think it's a fact that 50% of players in every match are using thorn. Who knows maybe they are I don't really pay attention to the weapon on the guy I just killed :) But seriously, I encountered it from time to time in this last iron banner, but no more than I came across tlw, red death, vex, felwinters, etc. It's a common favorite in crucible for sure, but I don't seem to have any more trouble fighting thorn users vs users of other weapons. You win some you lose some. Lot depends on who gets the drop on who, and taking cover before the other guy gets too many shots into you if its not going your way.

Woops guess I posted that twice.

So most people are on an equal footing then so I don't see the problem... It's bungies fault for nerfing ARs to death anyway. Thorn doesn't need nerfing... ARs need buffing again

I don't have a dog in this fight since I don't have a Thorn nor do I care about others using one but your rambling about FACTS is preposterous. 50% of the players [i]per game[/i] do not use Thorn. How do I know this? I've had at least one game where what you said wasn't true in the last week. You people toss around your self made %s like it's empirical fact is what's bullshit. Also what an editor writes on Planet Destiny is not a fact. It's his opinion. It is a fact that he wrote an article containing his opinion. Are you crazy and devoid of the logic which you want to preach?

I think they should remove the DOT at long range or nerf it considerably. I find countering this gun at short to mid range fairly easy

That article was a good read. Thanks for posting. I try not to PvP much in this game unless there is a reward at the end. I did iron banner this past week to get etheric light (because for some reason it is stupidly difficult to get in pve) and let me tell you... this was probably the worst PvP experience I have ever had in any game. Thorns everywhere! Not to mention I was two levels under everyone (because I find etheric light hard to get). Thorn frequently did 75% of my health in one hit. Atrocious amount of damage. I was completely disgusted and turned off from pvp'ing in this game ever again (unless I am forced to for a reward).