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Edited by Lost Sols: 12/15/2015 5:55:02 AM
219

Dumbo's Feather and the Great "OP Thorn" Myth.

Greetings fellow Guardians, I'd like to take a moment to weigh in on the [i]Great Thorn Debate[/i] that has been raging on the forums for some time now. It seems like half of all posts are regarding Thorn at times and I'd like to offer up a different perspective on the situation. From the polls that have gone up, those who think Thorn is fine generally seems to fall in the 68-75% range, but the other 25-32% resolutely believe that it is completely broken. The truth lies somewhat in the middle, but in the end I believe it is a completely fair weapon and here is why. Destiny is different that other shooters. In Halo, we had generic weapons and started with either the same loadout or different random weapons. Any shotgun was the same shotgun, any pistol was the same pistol. We had the same grenades and the same abilities. In Destiny, we take the weapons and armor we find in the world into PvP. We have different classes that can be set up with different perks and abilities to suit our style of play. It's something really unique to the shooter experience, but rather than embrace that, it seems that some are continually trying to tear it down and to make every weapon and class function the same (No, Titans don't need Blink). Once upon a time, the object of everyone's desire/scorn was the Vex Mythoclast, then it was Suros Regime, that was followed by Felwinter's Lie and now we have the undeniable king of the nerf threads, THORN. The problem with all of them is that none of them are true. Sure they are all great weapons, but unstoppable? Uncounterable? The only weapon anyone uses? None of those things are fact. Vex Mythoclast. A Fusion Rifle that functions as a primary and is Full Auto. Essentially it is an uber badass AR and at mid range has always been devastating... but even in it's heyday, it was never unstoppable. I routinely successfully battled Vex users with Suros, MIDA, Up for Anything and Vanquisher. Suros Regime. The first Iron Banners were affectionately referred to in many a post as[i] Iron Suros [/i]and [i]Suros Banner[/i]. It's range and stability made it a superb weapon in almost any situation and it was professed that if you didn't have one, you couldn't win. Of course no one ever brought up that the slow RoF meant that landing your shots was a premium requirement for success. Miss a couple of rounds and you'd find yourself killed by hand cannons, scout rifles, High RoF ARs and even first gen Pulse Rifles. Felwinter's Lie. This one was affectionately known as [i]the best sniper rifle in the game[/i]. Once more, if you didn't have Felwinter's, you couldn't possibly win in the crucible. Except that anyone with a Fusion Rifle and even a rudimentary understanding of the radar's functionality pretty much laughed their way to high kill counts as enemy after enemy tried to rush or outgun from range with their Felwinter's. Thorn. The primary with the DoT. Affectionately known as F**K THORN!!!!! Probably responsible for more broken controllers that any weapon ever. A really good Hand Cannon and with the ability to kill with poison after the victims take cover. The only problem being that, meeting in the open and engaging head to head, Thorn can be outgunned by any number of weapons in the game. Personally, the absolute most devastating weapon I see in the crucible is Red Death. I'd rather face Thorn than Red Death 10 times out of 10. Dumbo's Feather. A feather that Dumbo carried in his trunk because it was the most OP feather in the history of well, feathers... and it allowed him to fly even though he was just an Elephant with big dopey ears. Only he lost the feather and he could still fly. The feather wasn't magic and it didn't make him fly, it was him that could fly. Vex Mythoclast, Suros Regime, Felwinter's Lie and Thorn are all wonderful weapons and every single one of them is or has been Dumbo's feather. Take Vex out of a players hands that is getting 25 kills a game and give them Shadow Price, give a 25 kpg Suros user MIDA, a Felwinter's user Invective or Plug One, a Thorn user Red Death or Red Hand... do you think they're going to drop off and suddenly be bad? I switched from Suros to MIDA in the middle of the second IB and my kills went up. I'm reading all these posts that you can't win without Suros and laughing with each MIDA kill. These weapons give people confidence to know they can compete because they are really great weapons. I may not know anything about Up for Anything and whether I can get kills with it or not, but I know that everyone loves Suros so using it gives me that initial confidence that I stand a chance and it's a great thing to know. It's after you know that you can compete that you realize that it isn't because of the weapon in your hand, but rather that you've learned the maps, you've developed strategies, you're intimately familiar with your class, your abilities, your grenades and your super. You know what weapon classes suit your style the best and what perks you like to use and that's when you realize that there are so many amazing weapons in this game and if you're just willing to put down the flavor of the month, you've got the whole candy store to explore. So why the inordinate hate for those weapons? I have a theory on that as well. Vex was so divisive because it was a raid drop and let's face it, a very low % have completed the raids to this day. Here you had this amazing weapon and it was all but impossible for 80% of the player base to ever have. Suros was a random world drop and the exclusivity of it brought it's first detractors. Then Xur sold it and that set off the kids without the coins even more. Felwinter's required you to rank up IB or get lucky and get one as a drop after rank 3 the IB after it was sold. Again, those that weren't regular PvPers, who gave up on ranking felt left out. Thorn and it's glorious, glorious bounty and 500 Void points. It doesn't matter that if you're getting void kills that you only need above a 0.40 k/d to make progress. The minute people saw their score drop from one game to the next, it was over for them. It's one thing to die to something you think you might get, but the exclusivity was more than people could bear. If they couldn't have one, no one should have one. Beyond that with Thorn, even though it's 100% counterable, the nature of the weapon lends itself to hiding and taking pot shots. Stand in the open with Thorn and your going to get as good as you give. Hit me with a Thorn round and take cover and if I've already suffered damage from you or elsewhere, your poison can finish me. People already get enraged when they think others are camping. Snipers aren't going to be invited to too many popularity contests. Now add a poison DoT from someone hiding behind a wall or corner and people went berserk. Of course they could have always thrown a grenade and flushed the Thorn user out or flanked or waited for the poison to wear off and outgun them, but none of those options matter because [i]I died and it's not fair[/i]. Never mind that they may have been killed by you the previous 5 times you met up that match. all it takes is one poison death and there is no fairness in the world. It's so easy to get angry and to cry out against the things you can't beat. It doesn't mean they're unbeatable. The point of competition is to be [i]challenged[/i] and the only way to get better is to face odds you don't think you can win and use all the resources at your disposal, including that beautiful brain inside your head, to out think, out perform and out strategize your opponents. A victory over a better opponent is infinitely more satisfying than running roughshod over noobs. Will you lose some? Sure. Will you get better for it? Without a doubt. Do you need a magic feather? You never have and you never will. See you in the Crucible. -------------------------------------- Edit: The point of competition is to be challenged. Weapons like Thorn should be fun to face and try to outgun. Where's the fun of facing weapons that have been nerfed into the ground? Destiny isn't designed to be perfectly balanced. The great weapons generally have to be worked for to get and deserve to be great. In my opinion if Bungie want balance, they need to put all generic weapons in. If they want us to use our own, people need to use a little more skill to compensate when outgunned. It used to be so much more satisfying to kill a Vex user and facing it made you better. What's wrong with facing that challenge? ---------------------------------------------- Edit 2: For all the spread sheet junkies. Your stats are wonderful on paper, but Destiny isn't played in a vacuum. There are so many other variables that go into each and every single PvP encounter that it makes each and every aspect of a weapon matter as much or more than TTK. The thing with play tests and legendaries is that there are hundreds of possible perk combinations and your not testing them all or taking into account the advantages they can give. 3rd Eye, Glass Half Full, Full Auto, Headseeker, Final Round, etc, etc... Thorn is a great weapon. Vex is a great weapon. Felwinter's is a great weapon. If they're all unbeatable, why isn't everyone using them 40-0 with a 40.0 k/d? Every single one of you screaming OP know for a fact that they're dying just as much as you. It's a [i]game[/i]. Try having fun.

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  • Can we have more posts of this caliber? Highly enjoyable read. Excellent points. Kudos!

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  • You are amazing sir. That is all

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  • I love this post I agree with your points Very well put and well thought out

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    • Thorn beats coiled hiss with 3rd eye because thorn has the same TTK outside radar range... Not a good argument.

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      • Amen brother I don't use thorn it's not a gun for me but I can out do a thorn with a hard light lol its not that great or over powered all those guns were needed by the small % that complained and the fact they yelled over powered people seen it and decided hey I'll use the over power gun as well meaning it showed up as more people using it meaning bungee seen a d nerfed it like the suros regime

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        • Thorn is only bad when used en masse by the enemy. Otherwise I feel the same way about it as I do the ghorn,it's not that great and id rather have more tactically useful weapons.

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        • Basically, it's all about the mindset of the players.

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          • I love this post I agree with your points Very well put and well thought out

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            • So much truth here. Well done.

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            • Agree [b]COMPLETELY[/b]! I worked so hard for that thorn bounty and now some squealing kid is going to nerf my favorite gun into oblivion! I really appreciate this post. Dumbo is love, too.

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              • This is fantastic. Completely agree. Thanks for putting the time into articulating why the reactionary weapon balancing by Bungie is actually kind of unnecessary. Let us play.

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              • The current problem with Thorn is not the TTK but engagement time. It takes 0.36 to the truely skilled to guaranteed a kill. I feel that the DoT should still be able to kill someone in two shots, but only if you wait something like three ticks before firing another round. It becomes suddenly a lot less powerful.

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              • What? Thorn has a faster TTK than a heavy machine gun. Why should it not be nerfed? Not everyone is as skilled as you lost sols and can counter it, its those unskilled players who gravitate towards the gun because it guarantees easy kills. I dont think its fair of you to say thorn shouldnt be nerfed because [b]you[/b] can counter it. Most people have to use it just to even give themselves a chance of competing. As a result pvp is ruined with thorn and TLW only users. Its worse than when suros was king.

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              • This argument is flawed all over. You can't compare how others feel to your abilities on the game. Thorn is unfair because it kills in less shots than heavy ammo, that makes the heavy pretty pointless, let alone everything else. When the special ammo got nerfed, everyone switched to Thorn, which means yes, it is going to be nerfed. I can only suggest you prepare for that day because it will be very soon

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                • Another awesome post. Bumpity

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                • Why are you comparing guns to frickin dumbo?

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                  • Thank you. It is so refreshing to hear someone else say the same thing I am. There will always be a best gun nothing will change that just find some weapons that work for you

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                  • <3 Lost Sol Thank you I couldn't have said it any better myself, naturally, strategically, and gracefully. I've been a PvP thorn user for about 7 months now.. Ever since auto rifles were nerfed because people were crying till no end. My hex arc caster and shadow price melted enemies like vex... You are the community.... Umm... ??? .... Superman impregnated Samus Aran, and that baby was raised by Gjallarhorn & Marcus Fenix, and now said baby is a grown wise 34 yr old super human.. Bump

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                  • Edited by GMRcris: 6/6/2015 7:39:05 PM
                    I read your post but I'm sorry saying it's not OP is a absurd argument. I think most people concern is that it'll bleed into PvE. Which most PvP aren't asking for. We're asking for it to be looked at individually in PvP. The true reason Thorn is OP is its TTK. If you haven't actually taken the time to look at destiny TTK chart, then I'm not sure you should be throwing in your two cents on the gun, it kills in .36 seconds. Yes that's less than half a second. The second fastest killer in the game is the very often discussed TLW, which kills in .53 seconds. Yes that's about half a second. I know people will bring up Hawkmoon and it's one shot capability but the reality is that guns RNG, it's not CONSISTENT. Thats why it's not as used. It's not consistent but instead dependent on a ability that randomly triggers. People don't want to bring in randomness to their gunfights. Some people say "oh well it's easy to counter" sure it's manageable against sub par players. But I'm sure at some point you've come across these so called "skilled players" and their Thorns and TLW and realized using anything but the exact same loadout meant defeat. There is nothing skillful about these weapons. Truthfull there's nothing that skillful about destiny in general, we're talking about a game where there's actually a perk that increases aim assist (hidden hand) and grenades that legit out lock on to people and require very little nade skill (arc/fire/axion bolts) and let's not pretend the headshot hitbox isn't the size of a planet. In short in a very casual shooter like destiny Thorn and TLW aren't helping the cause. People liked Halo cause it was balanced, far more than Destiny but here's another reason, gunfights took SKILL it requires skill to have not only target acquisition but also maintain it cause you know your opponents didn't drop in 2-3 bullets. If you guys want to keep Thorn/TLW at the top of the food chain, you can't really bag on CoD for taking no skill cause essentially you die in 2-3 bullets in that too. There's a reason that franchise is so popular, it made every feel good about themselves. Anyone with lackluster aim suddenly was good cause all it took to kill some one was 2-3 bullets.

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                    • Except when all 3 opponents are using thorn and focus fire: instant death GG. A 'magic feather' analogy doesn't apply to weapons that are- and I say this after using it in the crucible- literally imbalanced.

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                      • Edited by FunderBear: 6/6/2015 6:56:21 PM
                        Stop reading when you said that 75% of the community think thorn is balanced. Edit: removed an unecessary expletive. Apologies.

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                        • Why thorn is broken. When using a certain colorblind setting, the thorn poison will darken your screen so it's impossible to see. The gun works better on disabled people. By using thorn, you are picking on disabled people. Just TRY and justify that.

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                          • I've been thinking.. I think whats the main problem with the Thorn is all the LAG in PVP. The lag makes the gun seem allot worse because your still burning and taking damage, though your not doing any damage to the Thorn user. The lag in IB was soo bad for me last night, the Burn was killing me faster then the Red Death could rejuvenate my health, which was making me feel frustrated as all I was doing was going neutral. It's the LAG wall in Crucible that's the problem.

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                          • Great read as always! To those who want Thorn nerfed so bad and constantly post about nerfing Thorn, I'd offer these points: 1. Don't you think there are more pressing issues in the game that require attention than nerfing Thorn? Take a minute and really think about everything that could use a fix in this game and then come back and tell me nerfing thorn is at the top of the list. (If it still is, you probably need to take a break from playing crucible/ToO and this game in general and come back with a fresh set of eyes). 2. Thorn isn't OP. It's just a really good exotic PVP weapon. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em! If you can't complete the Thorn bounty now with the plethora of void weapons floating around, well, maybe you shouldn't play Crucible anymore... 3. Crucible is a fun mode. But it's just a small part of this game. To me, an OP weapon would dominate in both PVP and PVE. Using that definition and seeing how it's not dominating in PVE, I'm going to say this is another reason why Thorn is not OP. Jellyhorn dominates in PVP and PVE. It's powerful. I wouldn't say it's OP--but if someone were to make a case for an OP weapon, that'd be the one to do it for. However, no one including myself would agree about nerfing it because the nature of that weapon is to be the most powerful weapon in the game. Cheers!

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                            Agree. I think some percent of people get killed by the THORN because they worry too much about how [i]insane that hand cannon could be[/i] instead of actually aiming and killing their targets.

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                          • Thorn is uses by 80% of pvpers If its necessary for thatany people to use one single weapon then its over powered I only use it because if I don't I get my ass handed to me. I like hand cannons they're my go to but if I try to use anything else I generally don't do as well I want it nerfed so I can have some other fu[b]c[/b]king variety. I am god damn sick of seeing [b][i][u]ONLY[/u][/i][/b] thorn!!!

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