I would estimate maybe 10 years less.

Aww, come on. I'm thinking more like 3 or 4 years less. The Spartans weren't [i]that[/i] instrumental to the war.

They actually were. Many Spartan-III operations prolonged the war by a considerable degree.

Yeah, but by 10 years? No. Besides, most battles were won or lost in space, not on the ground.

Have you read Ghosts of Onyx?

Read it? I own it and absolutely love it!!

Then you should be able to recall the operations the SPARTAN-III's went on that sabotaged shipyards and refueling stations on the edge of UNSC space that would have allowed the Covenant to overtake the inner colonies in several years.

Yes, I recall that quite well. But I still feel that humanity would have lasted almost as long without the Spartans.

In this instance, it doesn't really matter what you feel because you are acknowledging the war would have been significantly shorter, and choosing to disregard canon you clearly understand. Here's yet another instance, in Halo Wars, if Red Team wasn't around, the Covenant would have overrun the team sent to destabilize the artificial sun, and the Covenant would have gained control of a fleet of Forerunner warships, ending the war in only a few years.

Ok, the example with Red Team is really bad. The only reason there wasn't more of a military presence there was because of Red Team. And even then, that cutscene isn't entirely accurate to the lore. Yes, MJOLNIR is a powerful combat system. But without energy shields, that armor is about as effective as that of Stormtroopers in Star Wars, at least when pitted against Covenant weaponry. Case in point, Samuel's armor was catastrophically compromised from a single shot from either a Plasma Pistol or Plasma Rifle. With that information in mind, Red Team was insanely lucky that the Sangheili that attacked them didn't have ranged weapons with them. But beyond even that, the Sangheili appeared to have forgotten that their armor had shielding and neglected to turn it on. The amount of conveniences there have convinced me that canon was sacrificed in favor of an admittedly awesome action scene. Spartans are powerful, but the odds of any of the three members of Red Team surviving combat against an entire legion of lance-wielding Sangheili in full combat armor are slim to none.

[quote]The only reason there wasn't more of a military presence there was because of Red Team.[/quote]A stronger military presence without Spartans would not have been able to get the job done. The walkway leading to the Apex site is only wide enough for 6 to 8 marines standing shoulder to shoulder. Side struts on the walkway prevent supporting fire from standing away from the walkway. Undoubtedly a Marine task force would have been able to hold them off for a while, but given Sangheili superiority, they would have broken through. [quote]Yes, MJOLNIR is a powerful combat system. But without energy shields, that armor is about as effective as that of Stormtroopers in Star Wars, at least when pitted against Covenant weaponry. Case in point, Samuel's armor was catastrophically compromised from a single shot from either a Plasma Pistol or Plasma Rifle.[/quote]He was hit with an overcharged Plasma Pistol which is known to take down the most stalwart of adversaries, and even then, he was still in fighting condition. The only reason he died was because he couldn't complete the EVA to finish the mission. Compared to standard plasma discharges, MJOLNIR can take quite a beating, and with the Spartan's extreme tolerance of pain, [url=https://youtu.be/I7fHoDm7NUE?t=1m41s]can remain operable in MJOLNIR after multiple direct hits.[/url] We even have a good example of just how powerful MJOLNIR really is. [url=https://youtu.be/8e1No_Oo8f8?t=35m1s]Compare a Spartan-I in standard marine BDU to a Spartan-II in MJOLNIR Mk VI when they take direct hits from a Forerunner focus beam.[/url] The truth of the matter is that you are severely downplaying MJOLNIR's defensive capabilities in an attempt to relegate the Spartans to a role of marines with energy shields. [quote]With that information in mind, Red Team was insanely lucky that the Sangheili that attacked them didn't have ranged weapons with them.[/quote]Which is implying Red Team wouldn't have adapted their strategy to deal with ranged opponents. [quote]Spartans are powerful, but the odds of any of the three members of Red Team surviving combat against an entire legion of lance-wielding Sangheili in full combat armor are slim to none.[/quote]Which is totally why the Master Chief was unable to deal with the Prophet of Regret's Energy Sword wielding, energy shield equipped honor guardsmen with suppressing fire from Grunts, Jackals, and Regret's gravity cannon.

We're talking purely about Spartans in MJOLNIR Mark IV. That variant did not possess energy shields. While it was [b]WAY[/b] more durable than your standard Marine BDU, it still couldn't take direct hits from plasma-based weaponry. If it weren't for the Spartans having a ridiculously high pain tolerance, MJOLNIR Mark IV users would likely either fall unconscious from pain or die from shock caused by a single direct hit from a plasma discharge. All of the examples you provided were of Spartans wearing later MJOLNIR variants that possessed energy shields and had been modified to better withstand plasma-based weaponry. And your final comment about the Chief's assassination of Regret is just really bad. Chief was utilizing MJOLNIR Mark VI, along with an onboard "smart" AI, and possessed far more experience with Covenant tactics than Red Team would have had only 6 years into the war. Also, you've said it yourself. Gameplay =/= Canon. Look, I don't deny that Spartans were far superior to any normal human soldier. But for a team of only three of them in Mark IV armor to survive against a massive number of Sangheili soldiers using melee weapons in a small area that early into the war is nothing short of complete bullshit.

[quote]We're talking purely about Spartans in MJOLNIR Mark IV. That variant did not possess energy shields. While it was WAY more durable than your standard Marine BDU, it still couldn't take direct hits from plasma-based weaponry.[/quote]Yet it could and did. [quote]All of the examples you provided were of Spartans wearing later MJOLNIR variants that possessed energy shields and had been modified to better withstand plasma-based weaponry.[/quote]MJOLNIR Mk V's differences are minor logistical tweaks, a neural docking station, and energy shields. Otherwise, it is nearly functionally and visually identical to MJOLNIR Mk IV. My example from Reach is when Noble 6's shields are down. [quote]Chief was utilizing MJOLNIR Mark VI, along with an onboard "smart" AI, and possessed far more experience with Covenant tactics than Red Team would have had only 6 years into the war.[/quote]Chief wasn't dealing with tactical maneuvers, he was dealing with highly skilled Sangheili who were charging him with energy swords in CQC while under suppressive fire from surrounding infantry as well as Regret's gravity cannon. [quote]Gameplay =/= Canon.[/quote]That is correct, but in this instance you're contorting its meaning to apply to story elements. Enemy presence, location, and scripted sequences are canon. Gameplay refers to the mechanics, such as how the player moves, what the player can do, how much damage weapons do. Same goes for the enemies. [quote] But for a team of only three of them in Mark IV armor to survive against a massive number of Sangheili soldiers using melee weapons in a small area that early into the war is nothing short of complete bullshit.[/quote]Spartans were not created to be lone wolf soldiers. They were designed to function in tightly knit and cohesive teams capable of tackling objectives that are not normal. When Spartans are in a team, they're at they're best. You're also treating six years of experience that a Spartan has as if it's nothing. Even then, there isn't an infinite level prowess you can achieve there's going to be a limit.. We're talking about soldiers with reaction times so fast, they can't be measured using normal equipment. Meaning that limit is going to be reached incredibly fast by a Spartan. Previous combat encounters in Halo Wars are arguably more deadly than what was encountered on the Apex. After all this though, you proved my point anyway. If you claim a Spartan team shouldn't have survived the encounter at the Apex (even though they did it unscathed), what's a bunch of marines going to do in their place? If we go by your logic, the marines would fail even harder, meaning that Spartans would be needed to even have a chance at succeeding, therefore meaning that without Spartans, the Covenant war would have been significantly shorter.

Alright!!! You win! Happy? Frankly, I just wanted to prove that the Spartans are far from invincible. Especially in the early years of the war. Mark IV was designed specifically for fighting Insurrectionists, so it was ill-equipped to withstand Covenant weaponry. And your comment about how Mark IV could survive direct hits from the aforementioned weaponry is incorrect. Yes, the operator could potentially survive a hit or two, but the armor? Absolutely not. Structural integrity is completely ruined, EVA capabilities are eliminated, etc. If getting really horribly and irreparably damaged is your definition of surviving, then you may want to rethink it.

[quote]And your comment about how Mark IV could survive direct hits from the aforementioned weaponry is incorrect.[/quote]You have a source for this? Because right now the only one you've been citing, the instance with Sam contradicts this. [quote]"Sam dove forward and knocked John out of the blast's path; the energy burst caught Sam in the side. The reflective coating of his MJOLNIR armor flared. He fell, clutching his side, but managed to fire his weapon. John and Kelly rolled on their backs and sprayed gunfire at the creature. Bullets peppered the alien - each one bounced and ricocheted off the energy shield. John glanced at his ammo counter - half gone. 'Keep firing,' he ordered. The alien kept up a stream of answer fire - energy blasts hammered into Sam, who fell to the deck, his weapon empty." "'I'm okay,' Sam said, holding his side and grimacing. 'Just a little singed.' The reflective coating on his armor was blackened." "He turned and showed them the burn in the side of his suit. There was a hole the size of his fist, and beneath that, the skin was blackened and cracked."[/quote][i]-Pages 145-146, Chapter 14, Halo: The Fall of Reach (The Definitive Edition)[/i] After sustaining a direct hit to his side from the overcharged plasma pistol bolt, he later sustained more direct hits, all of which were absorbed by the reflective coating designed to disperse heat. Where he took those direct hits, the coating was charred, but did it's job. He survived multiple direct hits, none of which breached his suit, excluding the overcharged one.

Love how you continue to prove your point even after I've admitted defeat.