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#feedback

Edited by Lost Sols: 12/7/2015 3:07:53 AM
420

Intolerance. Gaming, Destiny and finding common ground in an online world.

[quote]Greetings fellow Guardians, I think a large number of you are aware at this point of the standoff that's been going on between a portion of the community and Bungie over the issue of matchmaking. If you've been on the forums the last week+, you know that I have been involved in this and have tried to reason along with hundreds of other guardians why this issue is so important to us. I have to admit that I was pretty down yesterday. I'd posted on Bungie's stance of not only silence, but removal of posts from the Trending and Highest Rated categories... only to have them remove it too an hour later. As I told another Guardian who found theirself angry with their post removed today, censorship sucks... but when you find you're the one being censored, it is literally like a kick in the gut and it is really hard to not take it personally. I never intended to be here writing these posts, but sometimes you end up places in life where you're given a choice. I love the game and have been a Bungie fan since '02, I don't want to be adversaries with them. So here I am reaching out to you all again (and Bungie, if they care to listen) in one more attempt to convey that we're just trying to reach the same goal of making Destiny the best game it can be. Thank you, Lost Sols[/quote] So I was thinking about all of this this morning. The mm issue, the forum censorship, the hardline stance by Bungie and the division this has caused between members of the community as well as the disconnect between us and Bungie at this point. Yesterday was a struggle and I wasn't sure what today would bring. Then at about 5:30 this morning the supportive posts started coming in and not just from those that have been backing this cause, but new voices adding their support. That helped bouy my spirits quite a bit, but then something else happened. These messages lit up. [quote]Make friends scrub[/quote] [quote]Go to computer games if you want in game matchmaking idiot.[/quote] [quote]Wow your pretty stupid why would there be in game matchmaking were playing on consoles not PCs FYI..[/quote] Nothing terribly over the top for the forums for sure. Muted one. Replied to the other two. One's response was "Queer". It opened my eyes and brought this whole week into focus. This isn't just about whether or not there should or shouldn't be matchmaking in Destiny, this is about showing tolerance for other people and points of view (and yes, it goes both ways). There's no doubt LFG and clans can be great ways to meet people and experience games with them. I don't think anyone who wants matchmaking would deny that. Something else that cannot be denied is indelibly a part of both of those avenues of meeting people is that they're both built on the foundation of not only inclusion, but exclusion as well. This isn't to draw all who use LFG or have clans under one umbrella, but a staple of both forms of grouping is intolerance, preconception and segregation. We've all read hundreds of posts along the lines of "kicked from raid for not having Gjally", "can't get into PoE because don't have Thorn", "kicked a squeaker before loot because he was annoying", etc. Now how many of the thousands of clans or LFG groups actually discriminate against people (gear, age, voice, gender, race, etc)? My guess is that whatever the %, it is far in the minority, but that brings us to the issue of matchmaking. Matchmaking is inherently everything LFG is not. There is no bias, there is no prejudice going in, there is no "must be 32, have big Gjally". Matchmaking treats everyone as equals and some may argue that's for better or worse, but I can say this for a fact. When I'm queueing for a random matchmade game, I don't care if you are old, young, black, white, Asian, straight, gay, male, female, deep voiced or a squeaker. I don't care if you're using Gjallarhorn, Dragon's Breath, Thorn, Up for Anything or any other weapon. All I care is that you try and you do your best at whatever we are trying to achieve. If you have a mic and want to talk that's great. If you just want to play and know what to do, that's great too. The argument that is waged the most against matchmaking is that people won't have mics, they won't have the right weapons, they'll be annoying, they'll be quitters, they'll be scrubs, they'll need to be carried through... The problem is that you don't know what someone is if you never give them a chance. When you tell someone they can't join your group because you don't like their gear or the sound of their voice, you have no idea who the person is that you are turning away. You don't know their capabilities, skill or willingness to do whatever the team needs. You're also not taking a chance to know someone that could potentially end up being a great friend. It's a lesson that could heal so much of what is wrong in this world if we just stopped the FEAR, stopped the HATE and stopped the MISTRUST and started giving each other a chance and realizing we're all the same. We have one life on this planet to live together the best we can, to love the best we can, to make what friends we can and provide the best life and make this world the best place it can be for our families and children. Destiny is a [i]game[/i]. If someone dies and your raid group wipes, it's not going to take food from your table, money from your pocket or draw any blood. So why get mad? Why disparage? Why not help them get better if they need it instead? We are all here because we love playing Destiny. There will always be those that are better and those that need a helping hand. There is no greater chance of coming across someone who is just a bad person in matchmaking as there is in LFG, it's just a misconception and lie perpetuated and hidden behind so people can pick and choose whom they experience content with. The maddening thing is that we are asking in these posts for an option to use matchmaking, so it would have no affect on those that didn't want to use it anyway. Not everyone is going to be a social butterfly. Not everyone is going to have any extra time to go get on their computer and LFG. Not everyone HAS a computer or smartphone to team up outside the game. Not everyone wants to be friends or in a clan, they just want someone to run and experience some content with. Maybe someone isn't talking because they are deaf. Maybe they can't reach out online because they have social anxiety disorder. Maybe they don't want to try to join a clan for fear of rejection. It doesn't matter why someone doesn't want to go outside the game to play it because that is no one's decision or right to judge but their own. Should they be punished and excluded from access to the heart of endgame play because of their reasons? That is the question everyone, including Bungie with their "Philosophy" need to look inside and ask themselves. Bungie. I've saved you for last because I'm sorry, but you've been the biggest disappointment in all of this. You created this game and asked us to populate it. You created this forum and asked us to give thoughts, opinions and feedback to help improve the world of Destiny. You said... [quote]Player feedback is one of the most important components of the conversation on Bungie.net[/quote] [quote]Bungie thrives on feedback. Never feel like you need to stick up for us when you see someone expressing an honest opinion about our games. We’re harder on ourselves than anyone else.[/quote] [quote]If you’d like to see new items placed on this list, start a New Topic on this Feedback board. Popular opinion matters! Topics that trend on this forum are more powerful than comments on this post.[/quote] You told us to forge our own destiny and to become legend. Well here we are, Bungie. We've purchased your game. We've spent thousands of hours in your world. We have fought the Fallen, Hive, Vex and Cabal. Travelled to Mars, the moon and Venus. We have fought in the Crucible and strived for success in Iron Banner. We have populated these forums. We have offered feedback and suggestions. We have started new topics and we have supported each other and posts and ideas for a better Destiny that we believe matter. We've done everything you have asked of us and we've given and invested ourselves in this game. And here we are with a genuine concern and feeling of exclusion and we come to these forums and reach out to you in this medium you've created for us. We've been eloquent, fair and we've made genuine efforts to educate, engage, understand and find common ground and we've grown and learned more about each other all along the way. We've poured our energy and emotions into this and in return we've been given a few stock replies, ignored and worst of all, these topics you've asked us to create, these ideas you've asked us to share, have been routinely and thoroughly censored by removing them from the 2 most visible forum tabs. We've genuinely tried reaching out to you in the hopes of finding understanding and repairing this disconnect. I've stated this before and I'll say it again. We are not adversaries. [quote]I'm really conflicted at the moment. I am so grateful for the way the community have banded together to support each other and this community desire, but I'm also genuinely saddened at the stance that has been taken against us. This was a call to reason, not war.[/quote] I never wanted to write that. I hope you're listening and I hope you come back to the table. We're not asking for you to do anything you can't, we're just asking you to consider a different point of view.

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  • bump!

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  • Good post. I agree.

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  • bump!

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    1 Reply
    • Get Friends.

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    • Edited by Achronos: 6/4/2015 1:36:14 AM
      I'm curious about the remark about censorship. We don't remove posts for criticism of Bungie or Destiny. The Trending and Higest Rated are designed to elevate content that people are talking about it but also are biased toward new topics. I'd bet that the posts in questions weren't actually removed but rather simple "aged-out" (the threshold is VERY high to remain on those listings). That said, if you think something else is happening, I can check specific posts, but if you can still see them if you have a direct link to them, that age-out is what is going on. The posts aren't deleted, and we still have our player support and user research teams consuming all the posts made and digesting them for the live team's consideration for future planning. This is as much your game as it is ours - we take such feedback seriously (the content of the latest DLC and patches reflect that pretty well, I think). One final thing - please use the report or mute function on those users who give you grief about your feedback. Reasonable and level-headed opinions deserve their day, you don't have to deal with users who cannot handle a different opinion or feel the need to attack users because they're having some trouble with enjoying Destiny. I've already warned some jerks in this thread for this kind of thing, but moderators generally need reports to find this stuff, because they cannot be everywhere.

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      • Bump

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      • Incoming Phalanx shield of text. I think the reason for Bungie not implementing matchmaking in the first place was to make creating raid teams and the like more meaningful and get the players more involved interacting with each other. Matchmaking, in my experience, kind of encourages autopiloting. Most players do not out of their way to talk to other members they are matched up with. And then once the activity is over, they usually never see each other again. I think Bungie's intentions were to push players out of their comfort zone, and players didn't like it. But that is something that will always happen: something's intention does not always translate to its function in the hands of another. This might be the reason behind Bungie's surprise when they were looking at the reviews on vanilla. I believe they were intending for players to make the most out of the minimalistic (in comparison to what I think it will be at the end of its run) experience of the vanilla and were baffled by how players were complaining about not getting what they paid for. Think Shadow of the Colossus. Yes they are very different games on different console generations, but what I am talking about is the experience made by the player. That game changed the way I look at video games today. There was honestly very little to do in the game, you could knock it out in an hour or two; even less. But the game had subtle ways of making the player forge their own experience out of seemingly minimal content. And I think that was what Bungie was shooting for. An experience made by the player, not the developer, using whatever tools were around. Making the most out of the Destiny experience. However, many players don't think like that. I am NOT bashing on anyone by saying this: they are not used to creating their own experience. They are used to having the experience given to them on a silver platter, for a lack of better term. They don't know how to, or want to, make their own experience from what they are given. Their own legend. Become Legend, I believe the motto was. So in summary, Bungie didn't implement matchmaking because they felt it would detract from the intention of the game: to forge an experience that the player actively worked on. The result was, what looks to me, an overall negative result, with players unhappy that they have to think; again NOT bashing. So Bungie may have to implement it in order to satisfy their players, but at what cost? The vision they had for the game? Now onto the hiding of topics. Yes, feedback is important. That means ALL the feedback is important. I believe the reasoning for removing topics from those lists is to make sure that as much feedback gets the spotlight as possible. If they were to only keep the highest rated topics up, other feedback that could be just as important won't get the recognition they need. So I think they are simply rotating topics in and out of those lists so they spread the responses out evenly instead of giving only a handful the spotlight. If only, let's say, matchmaking and weapon balances were at the top, when would other feedback like RNG loot drop fixes and Sunbreaker balance (which I think is fine but others don't) get the attention they need? It may lead to more things getting fixed all at once. Would you rather have a weekly/bi-weekly fix that only fixes two things each time or bi-weekly/monthly fixes that fix four or five things at a time? By sharing the spotlight, feedback and suggestions get the attention they need. My thoughts. The Phalanx is leaving now. Hope I didn't throw you off the map XD [spoiler]Unless you're Eris' rock on Cayde's map. GTFO[/spoiler]

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        4 Replies
        • Bump- cyber bullying is wrong and it's up to Bungie to follow the law...

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        • bump~

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        • Bump, they should really add a bump button next to the like star....... Yes I am that lazy =)> Hi lost lol

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        • Edited by CatMan: 10/2/2015 1:07:22 PM
          Dream Of Matchmaking In Destiny I know a lot of people don’t want it and some don’t think It will work, but for many guardians matchmaking will solve a lot of problems. I know that reps of bungie spoke about how they don’t think it will work, but how the game is now is not working and if it continues this way for the next nine years there wont be many players if they are constantly filling excluded, and like they are being sold the same things over and over. LFG feels like a ghost town looking for players and this website…. Idk. I’ve had a post on the recruitment inviting any player for the new raid and none if it is working so far. Clans are a joke. Well, occasionally lfg works, but most players expect for you to already have beaten the new raid or have a certain type of wep to join their team. Thus begins the whole ghorn requirement dilemma but with different wep. Its not only the players its also bungie. They knew this was a problem in year one and yet they didn’t really create a solution. Do you like this frustration? They put Deej on it and he told us to seek out players here. Problem solved?….Lol no. As amazing as (some) of TK is it lacks one this that would make it perfect, Matchmaking. I do believe that some of the bright minds of bungie could have come up with an easy solution to this problem. Whats the hold up? Why so many unanswered questions? You just keep dancing around the question not really answering them. Maybe they don’t know how they would want it to work, Idk. I came up with this ideal that I feel could be a step in the right direction. It’s not perfect, but it’s something. Most people have been talking about an in game lfg witch is an amazing ideal that I cant believe doesn’t exist. Let me add to that ideal. Here is some of the features I think would work in the lfg system. 1. If you don't have a mic you can even pick the option, 2. Players can vote on kicking a player, but that player still has the checkpoint and will be matched with other players that have the same checkpoint. You have A few options, noob, experienced, and Helper: Noob level: For players who want to learn the mechanics of any raids, and or want to practice. You wont get any raid gear, or end game stuff. You should get something. This way you can meet new guardians and build friendships that way. Or make in tower chat. Experienced level: Normal and hard mode. For player who know what to do or already have friends to help them. Helper option: The helper choose witch mode they are helping on and gets rewarded accordantly. This helper is there to serve as a guide showing noob the rope. How to take down the bosses, Where treasure is, ect. This becomes a cycle and guardians can pass it on. They gets very good gear depending on how helpful they are (the noobs have to vote) Unless the noob is a dick. More then likely the votes will be in your favor if you are truly there to help. Clearly if at anytime there are dick noobs you can quit. The drops the helper gets have to be good enough to keep them helping or this whole thing wont work bungie! Exotics they don’t have, their choose at skiping an exotic bounty and just getting the wep, exclusive ghost, ect. There can only be three helpers on a team. We know it won't happen in TK. Maybe in destiny 3 Lol. It’s just something to think about bungie. Get the team together and brainstorm. None of your excuses make sense. There are a huge number of players who get excluded from certain game modes for not being experienced and the noob game mode can solve that. There are noobs who don’t know what to do and need guidance the helper is good for that. How can you learn if you can’t play? 15% of players beat the raid last year unacceptable lmao. You would think bungie would want 85% beating it. You have players who want to be the first to have or do stuff and they are being asses making a good percentage of players hate the game (on top of the other stuff you guys need to fix in the game). I’m sure that not the type of game you meant to make….. Is it? Really asking. Coz or Deej pass this on. Anyone who want to add or alter this ideal, please do. People who disagree stfu. How is it hurting you? I really want to know. Trolls stfu you will be muted. People who have friends to play with, awesome. Keep up the good work. Bullet points: 1. You have to be 290 to join the matchmaker for the new raid. Other raids may be different , not going to do all the work for people who are getting paid to not do the work lol. 2. If you don't have a mic the feature won't work 3. If you get kick you still have the CP and the will match you with other players who also have that same CP 4. NF, all poe's( provided you have a mic) will have MM too 5. This will create a better playing experience for the 78% of players who are looking for a team to raid with or NF.

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        • Bump

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        • Don't be biased. Gotcha. Made a strong point. Thanks man.

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        • This made my week. Thank you Guardian for being a light in the darkness on these forums. As a veteran community member I salute you.

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        • Hey lost sols. I feel like you are one of the few people who genuinely wants to improve destiny. BUT I always cringe when I see most of your posts. I'm sorry thus is probably hugely wrong and if this comes off has an insult, but you just come off has so arrogant. The prime thing I cringe about is MM. It should not be in the game period. I genuinely want you to prove me wrong because while there are pros it's just not enough to outweigh the cons. Here's why I think that. Pros: [i]it's faster[/i] [i]no biase[/i] [i][b]easier[/b] for people to complete raids[/i] Cons: [u]trolls trolls trolls and more trolls[/u]- without matchmaking they have to think is it worth the time? The answer is usually no. With MM it's just to easy. [u]under geared people [/u]- this is something I absolutely hate to bring up, but it's a prime problem. There's a point where you can't do a raid with underpowered people you just can't I don't care who you are. The best raiding crew in destiny would struggle to take two undergeared people through a raid. Imagine three or four? [u]quitters[/u] it becomes far to easy to quit with MM. Before you have to ask yourself if I quit will I be able to find a group again? That thought alone is usually enough to at least give their current group a few more tries. Those few tries make a huge difference. [u]no mics[/u] I have to bring it up. Communication communication communication. I cannot stress that enough. No mic=no communication. With MM it becomes 10000% easier for them. They [b]will[/b] join groups and -blam!- them over. [u]friends[/u] simple really. With no MM part of the motivation to add someone is to make it easier. If it's already easier there's no icing on that cake. Would you eat cake without icing? Maybe? [u]no checkpoints selection?[/u] you would need to add this. Then people would have even less motivation to do the full raid. Lesser of two evils? [u]raid lobbies[/u] I've seen this has a solution countless times. People refuse to acknowledge that this would infinitely more present. With raid lobbies they could check every nook and cranny. Rather than just say ghorn they could check for elemental primaries. Raid emblems or sparrows. Get where I'm going with this? [u]the community[/u] you are a prime example of why this [b]cannot[/b] happen. You nitpick every little flaw bungie makes down to the point where I just have to think enough is enough. There only human give them a -blam!-ing break! The minute 70% of the community would bash bungie. Hey guess what when you insult them like over half this community does its borderline cyber bullying. That's [b]never ever[/b] okay. Ever. If seen some disgusting things posted about bungie and especially the community managers. How would you like it if I told you that you couldn't balance a cup on a table? Judging from your post you hate things that said towards you. Sols you may say that these wouldn't be problems but they would be. I challenge you to refute at least two. Even then the pros would still be the minority. Sols you are an amazing person don't get me wrong.

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          4 Replies
          • Bumping for OMM...

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          • ^^^ Muted me and I've never spoken an ill word to him, I simply challenged his arguments, and he was unable to respond. This is an older post but I thought I would call attention to the hypocrisy, to anyone reasonable enough to notice that there is a lot of pressure to be negative. Those who are critical of Bungie, and propose reasonable changes are ostracized while those who are dramatic, or over the top get bumped.

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          • we make so much effort to make common ground, yet Bungie just sits by idle; laughing it all up....

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          • Edited by Weaver1588: 8/30/2015 6:27:24 PM
            Warframe has in game LFG, custom shaders, a crap ton of weapons, clans in game, matchmaking, and its free. Why can't Bungie do all that?

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          • I'm always happy to give players a chance but if they turn out to be unfriendly racist cry babies of cause I'm going to do unfriendly report and leave never going near them again.

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          • Dude every post I've seen from you is Intelligent, well spoken, and concise.... Why are you here? lol anyway keep up the fight friend however I believe you are wasting your time on this community. They have attention spans of goldfish.

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          • Don't give them any ideas or they'll make us pay $60 for in game matchmaking.

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          • Bump

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          • Bumped.

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          • On the subject of Community Engagement, have you seen David Vonderhaar's (lead Developer of Treyarch, but you knew that right? ;) ) recent twitter activity RE the Black Ops 3 beta? Hes been schooling the entire industry on community engagement. Hes not even a community manager, hes the -blam!-ing studio lead LOL. Explaining reasoning behind controversial hotfixes, asking people for connection info to help iron out MM etc, gently calling out people who connect via wifi/have shitty broadband, explaining why he feels something doesnt need a nerf, or if it is going to be looked at, explaining that of course the game wont run smoothly because its a beta... I mean, yes, its twitter, so its quick and not massively chin-strokingly in-depth, but its constant communication about balance and connectivity and all sorts. I understand how and why devs and studios clam up, but this man is setting an awesome example atm. If you havent checked this out, I suggest you do, and hold Vahns conduct aloft as an example for all.

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          • Bump

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